Somalia pirates taking ships- where was the on-board security?

[Winston001]

My mistake. I hadn't heard of a plane stuck on the tarmac with the people being held hostage for ages??(even before 911 when the security was tightened). Because every time it happened they sent the boys in through what ever hatch they could get in. Teach me to assume!

Just less than a month ago http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/10/...2951224861146/ and also August 2008 http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=96473

Still think the only way to combat this piracy is "Zero Tolerance" hard on the innocent people caught in the middle though! How else pay up or mediate that's only going to promote the practice. Its a hard one, loss of life, loss of ships, environmental damage, we still have Hobson's choice in my mind though!

Zero Tolerance only works if you can enforce it. Murder is punished by death in some countries, as is drug dealing. Does that stop it? Consider the Aussies facing death sentences in Indonesia......

Piracy is just armed robbery and kidnapping at sea. Armed robbery happens on land right here in NZ so preventing it on the open ocean is next to impossible. Kidnapping is an accepted crime in South America, India, Asia, China...... No-one likes it and the penalties are harsh.....but its good business for criminals.

These pirates are well armed and daring. They aren't educated. They don't have networks like the mafia to warn each other. Basically they are desperate people who have latched on to a very effective earner.

There is a good post earlier about the role of the negotiators. You do have to wonder how they become involved unless they are hired by the insurance companies. Looks kinda dodgy.

[Ixion]

..
Piracy is just armed robbery and kidnapping at sea. Armed robbery happens on land right here in NZ so preventing it on the open ocean is next to impossible. ...

Uh, the Royal Navy managed to eradicate piracy very thoroughly in the nineteenth century. It has only crept back in recent times because short sighted politicians have scrimped on the Senior Service.

I rather think that, given a free hand and no stint on the ammo bill, even our own small Navy could eradicate piracy in the area within a year. See ship. Sink ship. Sorted.

[SARGE]

So, they know the pirates den location! F'Gawds sake what is WRONG with these people (the international bosses). Just blow them up!. Personally, I'd say get the Yanks to drop a couple of those cruise missiles armed with a tactical nuclear warhead on them (I mean, what's the point of having nukes if you don't use them), but in this PC world the Greens would probably complain. So, do it the old way. Heave a couple of battleships (or the nearest modern equivalent) just off shore. Begin bombardment. Continue for 24 hours, or until gun barrels worn out. At end, survey smoking ruins and shoot anything that moves. problem solved. Worked well for centuries, time and again. How do people think we deal to the Barbary pirates? Turn the Russians loose on them, they ain't so squeamish. Mr Putin would fix it, fast.

nah... Nukes arent cheap .. a Battalion of Marines with the PC leash off would sort the shit out in a few hours ..get some payback for that OTHER nasty business in Somalia a few years back too ..


or....


we could just go with the UN's great policy of sending them a strongly worded letter....

[Timber020]

Dont underestimate how organised the pirates are, this is a game for big money so they can afford to invest some resources into it.

The pirates change tactics constantly, they use different vessels, work in different areas, and have the funds to use spotter aircraft, satellite live imaging, have spies at ports, and have the backing of corrupt areas of the somali leadership.

The pirates have been brought up in one of the most violent nations at its most violent time. Life is cheap there, killing a bunch of them with do jack. its their leaders that need to be got to.

[Ixion]

Their supply of bodies is probably unlimited. But their supply of ships and boats is limited. Sink same. Leave a couple of frigates stationed on blockade off the ports. Anything peeps out, sink same. Soon going to run out of sea going vessels.

Or, yeah, send in some Marines to cut out the boats.

[Kickaha]

I reckon something along the lines of the Q Ships would sort it out

Of course there would be no taking prisioners

a Battalion of Marines with the PC leash off would sort the shit out in a few hours ..get some payback for that OTHER nasty business in Somalia a few years back too ...

What makes you think they'd do any better this time around?

[SARGE]

I reckon something along the lines of the Q Ships would sort it out

Of course there would be no taking prisioners



What makes you think they'd do any better this time around?

wasnt the Marines who got pasted .. was the Army and they had very strict rules of engagement..


like i said .. take the leash off and let us do our job..

[jonbuoy]

Its been going on for years only difference is no one cared before, they just boarded stole money booze ciggarettes and anything else they could carry. Part time cash in hand work for members of the indonesian navy .

Now they've got a lot smarter and decided to ransom the ships. There are convoys in the red sea that have navy patrol boats at the start and finish - probably why they've started looking for different targets. Pretty ballsy move on their part, will be the end of them once they start holding up the black gold.

[vifferman]

In The Harold today (sorry - it's not on their website), is an interesting tidbit: the Saudi foreign minister - Prince Saud al-Faisal has rejected paying the ransom fee of US$25million to avoid the threat of "disastrous action", saying "We do not support negotiating with hijackers or terrorists".
"They cannot be seen to gain from their activities and criminality. The best solution would be for the hijackers to free the tanker". He also said it would be up to the owners of the vessel to decide how to deal with the act of piracy. Britain has also rejected paying a ransom.
Meanwhile...
Britain takes command of a EU naval task force in the seas off Somalia next month, and Russia suggested foreign powers arrange a military assault on the towns on the lawless Somali coast to destroy pirate boats and infrastructure, invoking the spirit of 18th century cutting-out attacks by the Royal Navy.

[Dooly]

Yep, a military assault is blatantly obvious.
Attack the bases, as i'm sure the powers to be will know where they are.......destroy all the bad guys.
Cold steel, no prisoners, blah blah......waste the fuckers!

[Winston001]

Dont underestimate how organised the pirates are, this is a game for big money so they can afford to invest some resources into it.

The pirates change tactics constantly, they use different vessels, work in different areas, and have the funds to use spotter aircraft, satellite live imaging, have spies at ports, and have the backing of corrupt areas of the somali leadership.

That's very interesting, it hadn't occurred to me that the pirates might be organised in any effective sense. Not disputing what you say, just interested in where you learnt this from?

We seem to be focusing on Somalis as the only pirates but I was also thinking about further down the African coast and the South China seas. There are plenty of other nationalities involved and I guess the main reason Somalia is a haven, is the lack of govenment and policing of ports there.

Again, someone said its Northern Somalia, not the whole country. Be interested to know more because I thought the whole place was run by warlord gangs.

[Winston001]

wasnt the Marines who got pasted .. was the Army and they had very strict rules of engagement..

Oh heck Sarge, blame the Green Slime why dontcha They were Rangers, not ordinary grunts, and as you say, the ROE in a civilian battle made it difficult. So far as I can make out, one of the big problems was the choppers had to relay through central command, which then gave orders to the guys on the ground.....by which time they were already a couple of blocks further on. No direct radio link between air and ground.

Thought you guys had sorted that out in Vietnam.

[Winston001]

Uh, the Royal Navy managed to eradicate piracy very thoroughly in the nineteenth century. It has only crept back in recent times because short sighted politicians have scrimped on the Senior Service.

I rather think that, given a free hand and no stint on the ammo bill, even our own small Navy could eradicate piracy in the area within a year. See ship. Sink ship. Sorted.

Ok I'm in a generous mood so I'll concede that.

From an international law perspective, its a tricky situation. There are laws of the sea for international waters, and different laws for territorial waters. Whatever, an attack by a warship on a boat full of dark-skinned fishermen, mistakenly thought to be pirates, would be a disaster for the attacking nation. That is piracy, and it is one reason why naval vessels hold back.

Pirates are rife in the South China Seas. The nations of South Asia aren't known for being squeamish - how come they haven't done exactly what we'd expect? The Indonesians have a very effective navy and the will to use it.

[Ixion]

..
Britain takes command of a EU naval task force in the seas off Somalia next month, and Russia suggested foreign powers arrange a military assault on the towns on the lawless Somali coast to destroy pirate boats and infrastructure, invoking the spirit of 18th century cutting-out attacks by the Royal Navy.

Exactly! Leave it to Mr Putin, he'll sort it out. The only world leader with any balls. And the RN has the experience and ability to make amphibious assaults work, the only navy that does.

I suspect the problem may be solved in the next few months.

[sAsLEX]

We seem to be focusing on Somalis as the only pirates but I was also thinking about further down the African coast and the South China seas. There are plenty of other nationalities involved and I guess the main reason Somalia is a haven, is the lack of govenment and policing of ports there.

The Malaca straights are a good place to find pirates!

From experience the best defence against pirates is to look imposing.....