ESE's works engine tuner

[Muciek]

Yes it can, Dave.

Right, Trevor, as long as we're talking conventional engines. I don't think the Ryger would benefit from a disc valve.

What is 'my 50 page' ?

It's here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130916458 .

[Frits Overmars]

It's here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130916458 .

I wasn't aware of that section. Jeez! Another 20 pages to read. And heaven knows how much more sections there are here that I haven't yet discovered.
Don't hold your breath waiting for an answer Cotswold; first I want to read the lot.

[tjbw]

Yes, but what could be simpler, it seems that the VM engine to Ryger conversion kit just includes:
stepped piston, cylinder, connecting rod, spacer with valves, and perhaps ignition timing changed. Did I miss anything?
..

Oops, I missed the crankcase/inlet blanking plate in the conversion kit!

[MotleyCrue]

Its good that Frits knows all about the Ryger engine and is backing up all the claims, including some appearing seemingly impossible, because it would sound like a complete fabrication (no pun intended) without that.

[tjbw]

I think that the view of needing more fresh mixture to make more power, may not actually be the answer. I think the answer is the other way around.
You need better combustion to get less CO in the residual exhaust. Then you automatically get more effective charge from the same amount of air fuel.
It has to be that way or else it would be using more fuel and not less. For the air to mix better , it needs the most amount of time possible to mix best with the air and heating the air will help in a better dispersion. So I doubt that it uses any direct flow to any of the cylinder or ports. Neil

How about more fresh mixture at the optimum ratio (14.7?) to minimise HC emission?

I think a reason for moving the inlet from crankcase to cylinder was to facilitate some direct flow!

[Norman]

I am thinking the Ryger uses "EGR" to induce a HCCI like combustion and to lower emissions. The pipe pulse coming back to exhaust outlet after (too late) EC routes some exhaust/mix back into the inlet area? A valve (reed?) is letting exhaust go into the inlet/under piston but no fresh mix is allowed to go out to the exhaust this way due to the valve/reed? A pulse coming before EC will push into the cylinder and hold it there with help of the valves in the transfers. The alternative route for the exhaust pulse into the inlet/under piston is opened at EC and it has a certain timing through a cut out in the piston (or "something") combined with the valve/reed..? Well, how it's really done we will see one day but it is very very impressive what has been achieved! It's "a little" hard to wait I must say...

[JanBros]

Yes, but what could be simpler, it seems that the VM engine to Ryger conversion kit just includes:
stepped piston, cylinder, connecting rod, spacer with valves, and perhaps ignition timing changed. Did I miss anything?

I recall that a disc valve is good for 10HP over a reed valve, based on RSA V Derbi comparison, so might we see an 80HP 125cc Ryger with disc valve?

I don't think the stepped piston is confirmed, and it is my opinion it never will cause don't thin it's in the engine.



where would you place the disc valve to make it work ?

maybe you don't quite understand yet the main purpose of developing the Ryger and the needed solution to achieve the goal

[tjbw]

I don't think the stepped piston is confirmed, and it is my opinion it never will cause don't thin it's in the engine.



where would you place the disc valve to make it work ?

maybe you don't quite understand yet the main purpose of developing the Ryger and the needed solution to achieve the goal

Could put a disc valve at the current input port location, just need a 90° drive.

We live and learn

[d2t]

If the spacer already has reeds that control the incoming air into the under-piston area, why would there be a need for any additional intake valve? Although I think there was a Reed cage after the carb in a Ryger photo. Maybe it blocks the return exhaust wave somehow?

[tjbw]

If the spacer already has reeds that control the incoming air into the under-piston area, why would there be a need for any additional intake valve? Although I think there was a Reed cage after the carb in a Ryger photo. Maybe it blocks the return exhaust wave somehow?

The disc valve wouldn't be an additional valve, but an alternative to the inlet reed/s, and not for the KZ engine, as the CIK regulations call for reed valves.

It would be interesting to see how the performance of disc valve intake compared with reed valve intake.

[m4r]

why make a reed block trumpet style inlet to the cylinder if you won't be using a reed block there

so having the reed at the usual place, do you actually still need the valve ring? probably not, the pre compression ratio is just not as high as you have the extra inlet volume that is added. I also think, the outlet valves in the valve ring might not have been needed at all in first place, especially not with the now increased volume. Because its only the first 60°-70° crank angle of the upward moving piston where the transfers are still open. And as the fresh mixture has just before been accelerated up the transfers in to the cylinder, it won't be flowing opposite direction immediately.

[tjbw]

why make a reed block trumpet style inlet to the cylinder if you won't be using a reed block there

so having the reed at the usual place, do you actually still need the valve ring? probably not, the pre compression ratio is just not as high as you have the extra inlet volume that is added. I also think, the outlet valves in the valve ring might not have been needed at all in first place, especially not with the now increased volume. Because its only the first 60°-70° crank angle of the upward moving piston where the transfers are still open. And as the fresh mixture has just before been accelerated up the transfers in to the cylinder, it won't be flowing opposite direction immediately.

We don't yet know the locations of reeds in Ryger KZ engine.

If you had reed inlet valve just inboard of the carb, you would still need the valve/spacer plate to complete the new primary compression chamber, isolate the fuel and air mixture from the crankcase, support lower piston, etc. It should work without additional valves. But at the moment, only the Ryger team knows the configuration that achieves 70HP.

[m4r]

We don't yet know the locations of reeds in Ryger KZ engine.

If you had reed inlet valve just inboard of the carb, you would still need the valve/spacer plate to complete the new primary compression chamber, isolate the fuel and air mixture from the crankcase, support lower piston, etc. It should work without additional valves. But at the moment, only the Ryger team knows the configuration that achieves 70HP.

thats not true, according to the earlier patent, the valve ring is a separate part! Of course you still need the "spacer" and the "lower cylinder", i didn't say you wouldn't.

EDIT: on top, not having the valve ring, would get us back on keeping the ryger hardware simple, as frits said.

[tjbw]

thats not true, according to the earlier patent, the valve ring is a separate part! Of course you still need the "spacer" and the "lower cylinder", i didn't say you wouldn't.

EDIT: on top, not having the valve ring, would get us back on keeping the ryger hardware simple, as frits said.

We don't know for sure what the Ryger internals look like.

If they include a stepped piston and valve ring as shown in the nine year old patent, then you could remove all the valves from the valve ring, use inlet reeds just inboard of the carb, and the engine would work. This would indeed keep it simple, but would the engine now give more power?

I don't know the answer, because I don't understand how they get all that power!

If you remove the valve ring you may need something that supports the lower cylinder, and aligns it with the main cylinder.

[m4r]

yes we don't know the actual ryger internals, that's right, but that doesn't stop me from thinking

forget the valve ring completely, I guess the spacer or lets call it base plate, would be fine to hold the lower cylinder, align the upper cylinder and shut off the transfers from crankcase.

Again, why would you design the new inlet in the typical reed valve style if you are not putting a reed valve inside?