ESE's works engine tuner

[richban]

You Don't need to go forged.............modern cast is more than man enough.
(Unless its turbo or supercharged or burning exotic fuels)
Vertex as well

We will see. I think if we ran cast pistons with the heat issues we have had they would last 5 mins. The forged ones take a beating. To be honest I don't know much about the subject to comment. I will ask the people that make them.

[richban]

seen these
https://id3528.securedata.net/test.b...roducts_id=483
whoops 14mm pins

And compression hight way way out. We run KR150 Wiseco pistons at the mo.

[husaberg]

And compression hight way way out. We run KR150 Wiseco pistons at the mo.

tis was a ultra quick google

We will see. I think if we ran cast pistons with the heat issues we have had they would last 5 mins. The forged ones take a beating. To be honest I don't know much about the subject to comment. I will ask the people that make them.

Forged has better mocecular structure but cast pistions can use better materials now.
Like everything there is a trade off/compromise.

Pretty sure both the RSA and Honda RS pistons were all cast rather than forged
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173p340-gp...-part-2-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173p320-gp...-part-2-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t4072p220-gp...-part-3-locked

Wobbly redesigned the shape on the BSL pistions of about that bore size pretty sure it was Woosner that supplied the pistions, Wob might share?

Barikit might be worth a try as well
i note they seem to do a NSR sized competition big end bearing.
25mmx32mmx16mm. ( i haven't check my data but that seems about the right size)

Also i never knew the MC16 crank accepted RS125 rods on account of its 24mm pins.
Turns out the later ones MC18 on generally have to use Samarin rods or CRM125 Honda (ie NSR125)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130454811

[wobbly]

The same point about material advances applies to forgings - they are now run at the same clearances as top notch Jap cast pistons..
The only way to go in my opinion is Wossner - to many horror stories from Wiseco.
I can get direct into the CAD side of Wossner and organise any piston you want.
And have been using a 60mm design for ages in various engines and have a few ready to go into the NSR300s I am building.
This is based on Wossners HRC RS125 design, but if you stick with that you will have to bore the cylinders for the oversize and replate ( but thats also a good time to port them properly ).
It has a single ring pinned on centre so you can grind on the B ports and has gas ports in the ring groove.
The deck height is 29.5 and with 113 rods from Samarin no deck machining is needed ( good as the case is too small anyway ).
Im about to order some more - and could ask if they could adapt the design in 59.5 size ( dont know if the have that ring ).

[richban]

The same point about material advances applies to forgings - they are now run at the same clearances as top notch Jap cast pistons..
The only way to go in my opinion is Wossner - to many horror stories from Wiseco.
I can get direct into the CAD side of Wossner and organise any piston you want.
And have been using a 60mm design for ages in various engines and have a few ready to go into the NSR300s I am building.
This is based on Wossners HRC RS125 design, but if you stick with that you will have to bore the cylinders for the oversize and replate ( but thats also a good time to port them properly ).
It has a single ring pinned on centre so you can grind on the B ports and has gas ports in the ring groove.
The deck height is 29.5 and with 113 rods from Samarin no deck machining is needed ( good as the case is too small anyway ).
Im about to order some more - and could ask if they could adapt the design in 59.5 size ( dont know if the have that ring ).

I will have to talk to the Boys. We were thinking of going the whole hog with the longer rods rebore and plate. So 60mm is sweet. Just have to cost it all up. If you have a cost for the rods and pistons please let me know.


Ta Rich.

[Flettner]

Here is another small item in the TZ400 - a double sized CNC waterpump impeller,it sits on 50*C all day.

Is that one of the ones we made?

[seattle smitty]

I'm late to the Lectron discussion by a couple of pages, but Wayne, maybe you will opine about this one, seeing as you work on karts that flat-turn, as well as bikes that lean. Alcohol-burning outboard hydros flat-turn, of course, and always do so to the left (if we tried to set up a tight course that turned both ways it would surely result in much bloodshed; when you go into a turn with eleven other boats and you aren't up front, visibility is poor or worse, but if all turns are to the left you can sort of feel your way around with occasional glimpses). In the last 20-25 years, powerheads (flat-twins and flat-fours) are commonly mounted with the cylinders pointing left and right, the pipes pointing aft, the carb throats toward the front of the boat. Given the centrifugal forces in the corners, the carbs are frequently mounted at an angle, with the tops canted up to maybe 30 degrees to the left, float-bowls to the right, so that the fuel doesn't slosh excessively to one side of the bowl.

So you know all that anyway, Wayne; my question is whether Lectrons are more/less affected by these forces than Mikunis, and would you cant them over to one side in this manner, were you building an outboard?

[husaberg]

I'm late to the Lectron discussion by a couple of pages, but Wayne, maybe you will opine about this one, seeing as you work on karts that flat-turn, as well as bikes that lean. Alcohol-burning outboard hydros flat-turn, of course, and always do so to the left (if we tried to set up a tight course that turned both ways it would surely result in much bloodshed; when you go into a turn with eleven other boats and you aren't up front, visibility is poor or worse, but if all turns are to the left you can sort of feel your way around with occasional glimpses). In the last 20-25 years, powerheads (flat-twins and flat-fours) are commonly mounted with the cylinders pointing left and right, the pipes pointing aft, the carb throats toward the front of the boat. Given the centrifugal forces in the corners, the carbs are frequently mounted at an angle, with the tops canted up to maybe 30 degrees to the left, float-bowls to the right, so that the fuel doesn't slosh excessively to one side of the bowl.

So you know all that anyway, Wayne; my question is whether Lectrons are more/less affected by these forces than Mikunis, and would you cant them over to one side in this manner, were you building an outboard?

I am not Wayne obviously but interestingly the one or two Edmondson predecessors to the Lectron had no float chambers
Lake injector was one and i can't remember the other name (if it did exist) (later it was called the POS-A-Fuel)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...8&d=1411868143
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...1&d=1411868143
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...0&d=1411868143
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...9&d=1411868143
Neil made one that he had on the Kawasaki big horn prior to the EFI.

this is the story up to the Quick silver (Later Edlebrook)
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...0&d=1411459175
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/at...9&d=1411459175

[wobbly]

With my experience of kart carb setup, the only way to go is "pump around ".
This eliminates the fuel height changes in the bowl due to float bounce or any issues from centripetal acceleration forces.
If you dont know about this,its simple.
The carb float is removed and fuel is pumped ( from the usual round Mikuni pulse pump ) into the carb via the open needle valve hole.
Another fitting or tube is added at the correct fuel height, and this is plumbed to the suction side of another pulse pump ).
This sends the excess fuel back to the tank.
In your case where the fuel always sloshes to one side, then that would be the side to draw from.
The bowls are filled with tank foam to reduce the fuel swirling about at the main jet height.
Works perfectly.
Here is a shot of the system on a KTM 250 for road racing.
The two pumps are secured to a plate back to back with the pulse line fitted into that with a cross hole to operate both diaphrams.
And in the case shown the suction side is the original fuel entry, as it just happened to be the right level.

Re the Lectrons, one style of bowl has individual floats that slide on rods, so any variation in fuel height side to side is taken care of by this system.
But even then I would dump the floats and use pumparound.

Edit - yes the waterpump impeller was hoovered up by our resident CNC man, Flettner from Autoflight.

[Flettner]

With my experience of kart carb setup, the only way to go is "pump around ".
This eliminates the fuel height changes in the bowl due to float bounce or any issues from centripetal acceleration forces.
If you dont know about this,its simple.
The carb float is removed and fuel is pumped ( from the usual round Mikuni pulse pump ) into the carb via the open needle valve hole.
Another fitting or tube is added at the correct fuel height, and this is plumbed to the suction side of another pulse pump ).
This sends the excess fuel back to the tank.
In your case where the fuel always sloshes to one side, then that would be the side to draw from.
The bowls are filled with tank foam to reduce the fuel swirling about at the main jet height.
Works perfectly.
Here is a shot of the system on a KTM 250 for road racing.
The two pumps are secured to a plate back to back with the pulse line fitted into that with a cross hole to operate both diaphrams.
And in the case shown the suction side is the original fuel entry, as it just happened to be the right level.

Re the Lectrons, one style of bowl has individual floats that slide on rods, so any variation in fuel height side to side is taken care of by this system.
But even then I would dump the floats and use pumparound.

Edit - yes the waterpump impeller was hoovered up by our resident CNC man, Flettner from Autoflight.

Ha Ha, nothing new aye, I had an old stationary engine (turn of last centery) that pumped fuel up to a bowl with a divider (dam) with a small "v" cut into it. This was the fuel height as the extra fuel went over the V and back to the tank. And I'll bet someone thought of it before that too

[Grumph]

Ha Ha, nothing new aye, I had an old stationary engine (turn of last centery) that pumped fuel up to a bowl with a divider (dam) with a small "v" cut into it. This was the fuel height as the extra fuel went over the V and back to the tank. And I'll bet someone thought of it before that too

Technically, it's a weir arrangement. Yes, very old, particularly in rivers...Rex McCandless played around with weir type "float bowls" on works Nortons in the 50's. He had a hatred of floats or as he called them, cisterns. Quoted as saying his toilet wouldn't stop flooding so why use the same setup on a bike....

[seattle smitty]

I never had heard of putting a suction pump on the fuel-out side, but in the days when a lot of guys were converting the Carter N carbs from old Mercurys to alcohol, floatless arrangements were very common. I even built a set of three floatless carbs from billet on my little Sears Craftsman lathe. 2'" 6061 bar stock, one piece for the throttle body, the other for the bowl and end caps, and a funnel of Delrin for the overflow. Beautiful, if functionally crude.

H-berg, I remember seeing ads for the Lakes injector. At one point I believe the rights to it were bought by somebody in the light aircraft industry, even got FAA approval. The office was supposed to at Renton (Washington State) Airport where I was learning to fly; I looked for it one day, but don't recall now whether I found it or talked to anybody. The aircraft version might have been larger than the original Lakes Injector, which I recall being made primariy for karters, with a bore of around 25mm. I'll look at your inks again, fun old stuff.

I suppose there must be a "tank foam" that stands up to methanol and the other fractions.

Do any of the kart classes run alcohol these days, as they did long ago? The only motorcycles I remember running alcohol, besides the drag bikes, were the "speedway" dirt track bikes, an interesting in-crowd sport mostly in southern California, IIRC. Oops, just did a quick google, and I see there is speedway racing Down Under. Serious racing, but looks sort of like drift-cars but with bikes.

Well, also it might be that the pari-mutuel gambling motorcycle racers in Japan run alcohol. I never saw them when I was living in Japan in 1970, but I did spend an afternoon at the gambling boat races. Twenty four marine stadiums built for the purpose, tons of money involved. I've often thought if amateur outboard racers in the US could work out arrangements to where people could gamble on our races, there would finally be money in the sport, and a guy could make a living at the thing he loved.

http://www.aeroconversions.com/produ...arb/index.html
http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/

[wobbly]

No kart classes allow Alky to my knowledge, and the only bike classes are Pre 72 Post Classic air cooled.
Yes speedway solo's use it in the Jawa engines, but thats about it nowdays.
The tank foam I bought off Ebay is Alky resistant from memory.

[karter444]

Attachment 317983 Attachment 317984

The Dam Question!

Chambers has fitted an exhaust port dam to his RG50 cylinder. It was hand shaped out of alloy and is held in place with a screw and sealed with Balzona epoxy.

We hope to get to test it on the dyno in the next night or two.

The top of the exhaust port is 85% wide and the dam fills the lower part of the original exhaust port and tapers out to the pipe diameter at the end of the exhaust duct.

maybe due to the size and angles of the port there was no short circuiting and therefore nothing to be gained by doing the raised port floor , but maybe now that the dam has been put in the A transfers could be widened and reangled for more power .But this still [apart from heat transfer issue ] doesn't explain the loss in power with the dam fitted , maybe Wobbly could explain whats happening in the exhaust duct with regards to pressure and gas velocity in relation to piston position .With my limited knowledge it seems that the lower part of the ex port is only providing a large radius to gently push the ring back in , but obviously this isn't the case or there would have been no power decrease .Thanks to these guys for sharing this info , I have just welded in a 6 mm wide curved dam into one of our barrels and was going to weld from the dam out to raise the port floor ,but will wait to see the outcome from your dyno tests as I don't have access to a dyno .
looking forward to seeing the final outcome as there has been quite a lot of discussion on this modification
cheers

[Haufen]

Blue is where we started at the very beginning and after a lot of hard work and careful step wise development we have worked our way to the Red line. .......

I am sorry for you that it did not work out as planned, and I know that feeling pretty well, too Did you reproduce the result with another exhaust pipe, 'just to make sure'?

What I do in a situation like this, is to analyse what else had been affected by the change and then try to learn from it. In your case, time areas and area ratios of the exhaust port come to mind. As well as the distance between the transfer windows and the exhaust port. That seemed to have been on the large side at the beginning already? So maybe you found yourself a kind of "safe distance" for that cylinder and setup which opens the door for further modifications.

By the way, is that a cast iron liner? Looks like the ring is telling you where it wants you to remove some more material and make a nice blending radius at the top of that port. Would be interesting to test that after testing the bottom radius at the dam.