ESE's works engine tuner

[TZ350]

page 1420 links list to go here when I have compiled them.....

The Frepan TZ400 ... you will have click through to the original post to see the pictures.

Previously I said I would post pics of the mods done to the TZ400 that won at the Shorai Challenge, so here are some of the modified head and new water circuit.

From the pump water enters the rear of the cylinder below the welded on top plate, this forces flow around over the transfers then up into the front of the head via holes on each side of the Ex duct. This water is then forced to flow around the inserted head, and out at the highest point, with an auto air bleed back to the top of the cross flow rad.

The 3G3 - 6 port cylinder has an intake bridge added with a boost port cut on each side and ported to suit the Banshee 58mm stroker crank and special single ring Wossner 66mm Blaster pistons. After plating the 6mm welded on plate was reduced 2.8mm so that all the squish is in the cylinder with no step on the insert face.

It runs 16.2 :1 com on Avgas with 40mm Lectron HV carbs that are period legal- running into CR125 Reedblocks from VeeForce.
This makes the cylinder the same configuration as the TZ500 factory engine as run by Roberts - pre 82

I got one of the carbs off Ebay and it just happened to be an FBG, nothing special about it, they just jet them to suit. Make sure you get the HV version with the venturi behind the slide.

The only thing to correct or set is the float needle size for gravity or pump feed, the main needle and the powerjet size. Thing is they flow alot more air size for size than a Mik or Keihin, and the venturi then gives way better part throttle response than what you would expect from the carb size.

Looking at the Lambda on the dyno they have a really linear A/F ratio, a Mik or Keihin is all over the place as the circuits overlap. On the TZ400 I started out with a 4-2 needle and a 75 powerjet, this was too lean on top, and needed a 95 powerjet to settle at 650C at full noise.

This is too big, so I went up to a 6-2 needle and the powerjet dropped into the 60 range - that gave a spot on fuel curve to suit that engine. Only problem I had is that the Frepin frame has the tank very low and close to the carbs, thus the fuel head is minimal above the bowls unless the tank was near full.

The stock gravity needle and seat is a 3mm, so I got the special option 3.6 and this stopped it leaning out as the fuel level in the tank became low.
They do an add on air bell as well that dramatically improves air flow.

One last point about the Lectron is that as it has no idle circuit in front of the slide, it can be run at a very steep downdraft angle to straighten out the flow into the reedblock. This is worth plenty of Hp.

If you sat a Mik or Kehin at those angles they would spew fuel from the bowl directly thru the idle circuit ( not having it drawn up thru the jet well by vacuum ) especially with the fuel surging to the front of the bowl under brakes.

I met all the USA guys at the Island last year, a great bunch of really enthusiastic racers and tuners.

The TZ400 we took was easily fastest in practice, but the brand new Nova special ratio set shat 3rd gear in the morning warmup and threw Discombe down the road on his head. He had concussion so wasnt allowed back on the bike.

Dennis Charlett is racing the Nationals at Timaru the weekend of the Island this year,so we will have to wait. He is entered on the TZ for the last round at Hampton in early March,in the support Post Classic class, hope the new track is all done for that.

We wanted to run the Pre 82 in Superlight,as with a speedshifter working and stickys the TZ would easily cut lap times to be at the front, but the classes are too close together for the Grandfather to be comfortable racing the SV650 as well.

Master plan is to build another Frepin with a 4 cylinder version of the TZ400, as Paul Mclachlan rode one configured like that at Puke with a std TZ500 back in the day. If I put the same attention to detail into that bike it will for sure easily smoke the usual 750s as well as the big 4T pigs at the Island, we will see.

Here is another small item in the TZ400 - a double sized CNC waterpump impeller,it sits on 50*C all day.

The same point about material advances applies to forgings - they are now run at the same clearances as top notch Jap cast pistons..

The only way to go in my opinion is Wossner - to many horror stories from Wiseco.

I can get direct into the CAD side of Wossner and organise any piston you want. And have been using a 60mm design for ages in various engines and have a few ready to go into the NSR300s I am building.

This is based on Wossners HRC RS125 design, but if you stick with that you will have to bore the cylinders for the oversize and replate ( but that's also a good time to port them properly ).

It has a single ring pinned on centre so you can grind on the B ports and has gas ports in the ring groove.

The deck height is 29.5 and with 113 rods from Samarin no deck machining is needed ( good as the case is too small anyway ).
Im about to order some more - and could ask if they could adapt the design in 59.5 size ( don't know if the have that ring ).

With my experience of kart carb setup, the only way to go is "pump around ".

This eliminates the fuel height changes in the bowl due to float bounce or any issues from centripetal acceleration forces.

If you dont know about this,its simple. The carb float is removed and fuel is pumped ( from the usual round Mikuni pulse pump ) into the carb via the open needle valve hole.

Another fitting or tube is added at the correct fuel height, and this is plumbed to the suction side of another pulse pump ).
This sends the excess fuel back to the tank.

In your case where the fuel always sloshes to one side, then that would be the side to draw from. The bowls are filled with tank foam to reduce the fuel swirling about at the main jet height.

Works perfectly.

Here is a shot of the system on a KTM 250 for road racing. The two pumps are secured to a plate back to back with the pulse line fitted into that with a cross hole to operate both diaphrams. And in the case shown the suction side is the original fuel entry, as it just happened to be the right level.

Re the Lectrons, one style of bowl has individual floats that slide on rods, so any variation in fuel height side to side is taken care of by this system.
But even then I would dump the floats and use pumparound.

Technically, it's a weir arrangement. Yes, very old, particularly in rivers...Rex McCandless played around with weir type "float bowls" on works Nortons in the 50's. He had a hatred of floats or as he called them, cisterns. Quoted as saying his toilet wouldn't stop flooding so why use the same setup on a bike....

I never had heard of putting a suction pump on the fuel-out side, but in the days when a lot of guys were converting the Carter N carbs from old Mercurys to alcohol, floatless arrangements were very common. I even built a set of three floatless carbs from billet on my little Sears Craftsman lathe. 2'" 6061 bar stock, one piece for the throttle body, the other for the bowl and end caps, and a funnel of Delrin for the overflow. Beautiful, if functionally crude.

H-berg, I remember seeing ads for the Lakes injector. At one point I believe the rights to it were bought by somebody in the light aircraft industry, even got FAA approval. The office was supposed to at Renton (Washington State) Airport where I was learning to fly; I looked for it one day, but don't recall now whether I found it or talked to anybody. The aircraft version might have been larger than the original Lakes Injector, which I recall being made primariy for karters, with a bore of around 25mm. I'll look at your inks again, fun old stuff.

I suppose there must be a "tank foam" that stands up to methanol and the other fractions.

Do any of the kart classes run alcohol these days, as they did long ago? The only motorcycles I remember running alcohol, besides the drag bikes, were the "speedway" dirt track bikes, an interesting in-crowd sport mostly in southern California, IIRC. Oops, just did a quick google, and I see there is speedway racing Down Under. Serious racing, but looks sort of like drift-cars but with bikes.

Well, also it might be that the pari-mutuel gambling motorcycle racers in Japan run alcohol. I never saw them when I was living in Japan in 1970, but I did spend an afternoon at the gambling boat races. Twenty four marine stadiums built for the purpose, tons of money involved. I've often thought if amateur outboard racers in the US could work out arrangements to where people could gamble on our races, there would finally be money in the sport, and a guy could make a living at the thing he loved.

http://www.aeroconversions.com/produ...arb/index.html
http://www.ellison-fluid-systems.com/

Attachment 318089
I have posted some stuff on all of them including the mouse trap.
I will dig it up latter.
Gardner made a set of carbs for the Dual valve Exactaweld (whoops it was the Armstrong)
A few used to gun them on the early clasics including from memory Bill Swallow of the 3 bearing Velo modified Norton into a near Seeley thing he used to race.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2810/1...0e6ccb21_b.jpg
I am not sure if the Gardner had a conventional needle or funny shape like the posa, lake,EI, Bluestreak, lectron, Quiksilver Edlebrock, Smart family


Attachment 318083Attachment 318084

Merry Xmas to all and thanks again for all the amazing information shared on this Thread. I am sure It's made a massive difference to anyone racing a 2 stroke in NZ or anywhere across our small planet for that matter. Well done Rob!

We will be flying the 2 stroke flag again this year at the cemeterycircuit on boxing day. ( www.cemeterycircuit.co.nz ) This time with 3 bikes. 3 x NSR300's There is live streaming if you want to take a look. F3 is where we will be.

Live timing. http://www.livetiming.co.nz/Live_Timing.aspx

The issue you are up against is that the traditional layout dictates that the idle jet ( and its supply well ) are in front of the slide ( engine side ).

The Lectron has no idle circuit at all, with all the fuel entering the venturi up the main ( emulsion tube - but not ) needle well. With this old school setup the fuel level for this circuit becomes progressively closer to the exit hole in the floor of the venturi, as the carb is tipped upward.

If you go too high, fuel will simply run straight up the well and dribble into the venturi in front of the slide, with no air flow needed. To make matters worse this fuel level rises in the front side of the bowl under brakes, again fuel spews out the idle circuit without any vacuum.

Best example of this is a TZ350, where plenty of power gain is to be had by shaving off the rubber manifold face to straighten out the intake by
re angling up the old VM38mm carbs. Go greater than about 5* and its impossible to stop the flooding under brakes, no matter how low you drop the fuel level by shutting off the float valves early.

The only way I know to get around this is to use the OEM carbs made by Keihin on things like NSR400 etc where the bowl is kept horizontal,and the venturi is angled.People on here can tell you several other models that had the downdraft carbs from the factory - for exactly the reasons above.
The other example is an FCR as was designed for the heavily downdrafted ports on big 4T engines.

There are quite a few sizes availble in the OEM carbs used by Honda with a D shaped venturi, and the FCR is made in plenty of sizes as well, but jets for this are a nightmare to size for a 2T.

Dellorto have made some carbs with the idle jet ( and its fuel well ) on the intake trumpet side , with drillings down the side of the emulsion tube and around in front of the slide.They usually have a fuel adjuster screw on the side, not an idle air screw.

These could easily be modified to run seriously downdraft, as the greater the angle the lower the fuel gets in relation to the actual idle jet height.

Most of the Dellortos made since the intro of the PHF series have the idle jet on the intake side and can be easily run at up to 45 degrees inclination. The downdrafts pictured earlier would appear to be based on the basic PHF style bodies. Anyone got any pics of them without the bowls fitted ?

Amusingly enough, the AMAL concentric series, both 1 & 2, have the same setup and are quite good at steep downdrafts.

But I feel I must add here, that my whole perception of dyno testing was changed by Jan stating that a lot of the pipe testing that was originally done was invalidated in that the jetting wasn't optimised for each change of dimensions.

What he was saying is that if a pipe affected the egt due to its design, then the power change was due to the egt change - not the actual efficiency ( or not ) of the actual pipe.

I have taken this on board and for some time EVERY run I do I aim to jet for exactly the same peak power egt. A small change in reed stiffness will absolutely change the egt number, and if you dont then rejet to achieve the target, then the temp change is causing the power difference - not the reed change.

I shoot for 650*C on a KZ2 for example as this is what we see for best power. Now I am starting to use Lambda, to achieve a target A/F ratio.
Both methods, are in effect approximating what should really be done to do this properly, that is measuring air and fuel flow to generate a max power BSFC number.

But anyway, what I am saying is that just doing a dyno run, making a change and then not rejetting - is a waste of effort.

The Lambda I use is from Innovate Motorsports with a Bosch heated wideband, and it can read out in various formats. It will convert directly to A/F ratio, Lambda Number, or 0-5V, I use the A/F ratio as an input direct to the dyno datalogger so as to see
the power overlayed with A/F as well as deto etc.

The probe is in the front of the muffler,with a threaded insert that sits right on top of the perf tube. It has a gauge reading out A/F, but you for sure havnt time to watch that when doing a dyno run.

One take on the dam idea affecting the top end so much, is that is exactly the effect you see by putting a 75% nozzle in the duct exit when running a sim. This is why I thought the next step should be to extend the floor right out the flange face.

Gaining all that top end means you have an option to redesign the pipe for better mid, or use the overev capability and use the pipe to make even more power up top. The Ryger homologation is due to be published publicly by the CIK on the 1st Jan.
I will be onto the site all day looking for the info we all are screaming for.

Thats what I alluded to re tracking EGT with a really fast response probe ( open tip, Stinger from EGT Industries - guaranteed for 2 years ) and datalogging it against power.

If the egt has dropped from say 650 to 600, then it would need at least 2 jets leaner to get back to your baseline. 2 jets is night and day power wise, and peak power rpm wise. And as you well know, if the mid has gone rich in relation to the top,then you will need to adjust the air correction to skew the fuel curve as well.

This is the controller I use for the Lambda,and this sends the A/F corrected numbers to the dyno datalogger - 12.8:1 makes alot more sense to me than 0.9 Lambda ever did.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lc2.php

This is my first post, I've been following this fantastic thread for over a year now, and have learned so much, many thanks to you all.

I have been building a TZ350 with a 58mm banshee crankshaft. We're now at the stage where I need to weld a plate to top surface of the cylinder.

I see Wobbly has already done this on the Frepin TZ350, with great success. I am planning on keeping the standard bore size 64mm, I need advice on what is the best grade of aluminium plate for the welding, and any tips on minimising bore distortion during the process. Many thanks in advance.

The plate added to the 3G3 TZ350 cylinder to accommodate the long stroke crank was in 6061 alloy. This is needed to be compatible with the plating process - but you need to tell your plater this is the material/weld used.

Of significance though is the fact that the plate is thicker than needed, and that it is thru bolted at all 11 stud holes whilst welding around the bore
and the water jacket. I also took the opportunity to completely change the water flow.

The plate has only 4 - 12mm water exit holes above the Ex ports. With the water inlet from the pump into the top back of the cylinder, all the cold flow is forced over the transfers,around the bore,then over the Ex duct and up into the head.

Then it travels back ,over the inserts, to the rear again and out at the highest point. A small 3mm hole in the plate at the highest point of the cylinder allows trapped air to get out, into the head water jacket above.

Put large chamfers on the plate/bore faces, so the weld has good deep penetration, then the bore can be re cut without removing any of the existing bore face and the top can be cut before plating, to give the correct deck position.

Many thanks Wobbly for all the info about plate and water jacket mods. I've be following your posts on the TZ400 with great interest. I was going to fit the head the standard way around, but I'll be checking to see if it will fit on the G chassis with the thermostat housing towards the rear now. Thanks for your help, it's much appreciated.

I cut the thermostat housing off and welded a thin plate over the top.

The std Yamaha thermostat is junk - it opens at way too high temperature, and from memory the head isnt symmetrical so wont go on backward.

Now I use a proper bypass thermostat that starts to open at 42*C and with the larger pump impeller the 400 sits on 50*C all day.
The water outlet to the radiator on the back of the head, is the original inlet fitting.

Frepin Replica TZ400 Most if not all the links

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130563280

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130559561

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130920986

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130639230

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130930712

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130540263

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130346957

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130708802

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130930046

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130410366

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130411359

One I missed

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130929996

Bypass

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130410293#post1130410293

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130410828#post1130410828

[breezy]

What you don't see is the cover the crankcase ventilation which was a separate part of the engine. This original design was not approved by the CIK/FIA. Ryger had to adjust this design. The crankshaft ventilation has now become an integral part of the crankcase.

The Ryger concept is completely accepted by the CIK/FIA and the engine seems to be homologated.

Ok... thanks for that.

[wobbly]

The Ryger homologation hasnt been posted on the CIK site - so no one can say for sure yet it has been approved ( without inside info of course ).

[MotleyCrue]

The Ryger homologation hasnt been posted on the CIK site - so no one can say for sure yet it has been approved ( without inside info of course ).

Is there any sort of deadline date for CIK to post it, so the Ryger can actually be used in 2016 ? I imagine they won't post it until the absolute last second that it can be posted, whenever that is. Is it conceivable the Ryger could enter as late as mid season with enough arm twisting applied, you know being revolutionary and all ?

[jonny quest]

Anyone help with the link to connecting rod chart? I need a 78mm c to c, 22mm dia, 14mm dia

[TZ350]

Anyone help with the link to connecting rod chart? I need a 78mm c to c, 22mm dia, 14mm dia

Page 1370 has a posts list with a lot of Husaburgs links to pistons, rods and other useful stuff. ... http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...tuner/page1370

[paul gane]

Many thanks for all the sharing of knowledge. This weekend will be a busy one.

[wobbly]

The date was officially supposed to be 1st Jan.
But so far none of the new homologations have been issued - even though we have the interim numbers for all of them.

[ken seeber]

Checking back, it wasn't til 18th Feb 2013 that they published the engines, carbs and ignitions for the 2013 to 2016 period. The first CIK KZ event appears to be around the 4th month of the year.
So, don't hold your breath unless you have BIG lungs.

[G Jones]

This is my first post, I've been following this fantastic thread for over a year now, and have learned so much, many thanks to you all.
I have been building a TZ350 with a 58mm banshee crankshaft. We're now at the stage where I need to weld a plate to top surface of the cylinder. I see Wobbly has already done this on the Frepin TZ350, with great success. I am planning on keeping the standard bore size 64mm, I need advice on what is the best grade of aluminium plate for the welding, and any tips on minimising bore distortion during the process. Many thanks in advance.
PS can't wait for the Ryger technology to be posted.

Just curious - are you also converting the TZ cylinder to Reed Valve ?

[paul gane]

No Gordon, staying with piston port. I've got a ignitech P2 race ignition fitted, 26j carbs
, and a Mestre inserted head. I want to set up Wobbly's cooling system layout next, and would like to do the duct reducing mod to the exhaust port. There's life in the old dog yet, just not enough time.

[G Jones]

No Gordon, staying with piston port. I've got a ignitech P2 race ignition fitted, 26j carbs
, and a Mestre inserted head. I want to set up Wobbly's cooling system layout next, and would like to do the duct reducing mod to the exhaust port. There's life in the old dog yet, just not enough time.

I thought I recognized the name...OK - sounds like you're heading in the right direction - we use a very similar setup - any mods with the carbs ? (you know I have new slides for those ? don't look at the eb*y price though) - the reduction on exh port is worth doing - we did one 22 years ago...although probably a little more basic than the things being done now...

I too am looking very closely at the cooling - we are now running at a very acceptable level in the rad - but I'm sure there are benefits in getting the cylinder / head temperature improved (reduced) in the right places.

We use a Pro-digital ignition - very happy with it - but looking for an alternative as it's no longer available - still sitting on the fence regarding the ignitech - have seen some comments that it may be a bit low on Spark energy - although - what that means in practice - not really sure - just know if I fit another ignition - it must be at least as good as the Pro-digital.

I've tried most of the TZ ignitions over the years - most of them no longer available - not really keen on any of the currently available self generating systems - so we're back to the Ignitech & RTD....just have to decide which is best...
Life in the old dog ? - tend to agree - not bad for an engine that's getting on for 40 years old...

PS - I had a friend asking the other day if I had a copy of the old TSR software - I did have it years ago - but can't find it - so - anyone know if there's anything available anywhere ? (no - I don't know why he wants it...)

[paul gane]

Hi Gordon, I've no mods to carbs other than all new parts, slides needles float valves emulsion tubes.
Is it you selling the Metor pistons ?
Re ignitech, the coils supplied could be bettered by the rgv coil as Wobbly recommend, the standard spark does look a little weak.
I really like the simplicity of these old tz's, so many replica parts made now, just need Yamaha to start re- casting crankcases and could have a new engine.

[G Jones]

Hi Gordon, I've no mods to carbs other than all new parts, slides needles float valves emulsion tubes

6FBY44
247 - O0
We use Viton tipped float needles - as our system uses a vac pump.

Is it you selling the Metor pistons ?

Yes

Re ignitech, the coils supplied could be bettered by the rgv coil as Wobbly recommend, the standard spark does look a little weak.

We use RGV coil - or a clone of it - massive spark even at zero RPM - by that I mean you can move the magnet past the coil & produce a fat spark...

I really like the simplicity of these old tz's, so many replica parts made now, just need Yamaha to start re- casting crankcases and could have a new engine.

That might not be necessary.....

[crbbt]

whilst driving around this vast country. thinking about all aspects of life...

has anyone put a power valve on the bottom of the of the exhaust port?

I've assumed that the short circuiting from the A port to the exhaust port mostly happens in the lower rev range?

If not, then, nevermind