ESE's works engine tuner

[bucketracer]

To reply to kicka and bracer , its free to upload a drawing to shapeway ,even easier if you know the volume a cr 250 cylinder would be im guessing about 10 000 yen for the mold then machining costs and casting
Stephen

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

[husaberg]

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

Add some allowance for material for a radial head nice swooping transfers and decent size cooling fins?
But are the drawings in the stuff Frits posted enough to work from?

[Brian d marge]

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

you multipy the volume bu the cost per cm^3 and thats how much it will cost to print

IF the price is right persuadw you friendly 3d cad operator to draw the thing in 3d , send drawing to shapeways ( after triple checking dims )

wait 5 days , then off to the local casting man ,,,,,,,,

If you can get the casting done and the machining done , then the 3d printing is the easy part ...

ONE thing though sandstone is brittle , ( fins) and poorous , needs sealing if you want a decent surface finish )

Stephen

[dmcca]

Data Logging

Wobbly, It looks like you are using a Digatron EGT/CHT gauge on your 400 in the youtube vid... which model are you using and how does it perform?

Im looking at getting one but cant decide which model would be best for me... mainly using it for ride testing dirtbikes, not on a dyno (hopefully that will come later!)... so it needs to record so i can stay focussed on the track then review the data later. Im hoping to use it to tune all carb circuits, but not sure how easy this will be for the pilot and needle unless i can get a log of the tps signal as well?? Regardless id like to have one anyway to play with and learn from.

Thinking about the DT46K model...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digatron-...6#ht_985wt_932

This one has a single screen dispay... are multiple displays better for watching egt/cht comparisons in real time?

[wax]

Those dimensions should be enough to draw it in cad.
I may have a go later for shites and giggles

[husaberg]

I do see one potential snag in the plan bucket.....
The stroke and the bore, Because unless you are planing to stroke the GP125 to 54mm all those clever angles may well be lost in translation.

Didn't someone mention doing a 3d scan of a original cylinder using some sort of medical equipment like a Cat scan? (probably Wob)

yip it was and Frits

I have reverse engineered a couple of parts using CT scan.A place on Remuera Rd did the scans for free, as it was interesting to them.
The big issue is getting the scan data into a format that can be manipulated by a CAD program.
This in the first instance cost plenty to have done - then my son did a torrent download of a 30K USD program that can take the scan data and turn it into
a .xt solid for example.
There are even programs now that can create a constructional element tree that emulates how SolidWorks would have created the part.
Constructing a cylinder as a solid model from scratch stretches the limits of the system, the programs and the CAD engineers intellect.
Last one I did took 6 weeks full time.
Taiwanese companies can now do a one off cylinder casting using Rapid Prototyping with ceramic sand for around 1500USD, about a 1/4 of what the BSL cylinders cost to produce.

The cores for the exhaust and transfer ducts are not the most difficult parts; it is the cooling waterjacket core that really complicates things when you are planning to cast your own cylinders. In my Aprilia-papers there are CT-scans of the ducts and the cooling void, available as soon as mental trousers has worked out a way to make those data accessible.

Last time I looked, (4-5 yrs ago?) they used a proprietary (of course )mesh based format. I was reviewing a new RP printing system using Ti and Tool steel sintered by microwaves. The app for the system was also mesh based: http://www.materialise.com/Magics-e-Solution-Suite and in fact felt more CGI than CAD to use but worked OK once you got a feel for it.

I normally use Rhino, ( http://www.rhino3d.com/ ) which has some pretty solid translation routines, but I’d be interested in anything that could generate SW constraints / history for a given export...


I don’t doubt it. I’m constantly up against unrealistic expectations of clients about modelling complex shapes, and that's exactly what Rhino’s optimised for.

In my cylinders it was mainly the complicated cooling ducting that forced me to find a way around casting limitations. For an air-cooled cylinder like you want, there is no need to resort to selective laser melting.
Rob Metkemeijer's MB40 prototype engines are cast using the lost-wax method. Below you see a mold with exhaust and transfer cores, a wax cylinder and the end product. A mold like this for an air-cooled cylinder is relatively easy to make.

this post has pictures of a lost wax mold etc

What is wrong with a hand job? Several of my acquaintances are carving such a cylinder out of a lump of aluminium. If they can do it, so can you.

This post includes pictures of a cylinder being made not cast to the FOS design

the drawings below out of Frits Zip file err i don't actually know what motor they are for?

[TZ350]

I do see one snag in the plan bucket..... The stroke and the bore, Because unless you are planing to stroke the GP125 to 54mm all those clever angles may well be lost in translation.

We have looked at that, currently we bore the B/E pin hole out 3mm for a 22mm pin. And with a little welding on one side we may be able to shift the pin center 2mm for a 54mm stroke. But the big problem then would be case to bigend clearance. It would be tight but maybe possible.

[wobbly]

Be carefull, the Aprilia is 54.5 stroke, but cutting a case trench for the bigend isnt a biggy.

The Digatron is a special model I got that uses Supercaps to power it for review in the pits. DT-52SRE2 DC
It has max recalls and 2Hrs of replayable datalogging on the screen or downloadable data to a PC.
Get it from Exhaust Gas Tecnologies - as they are the only guys that guarantee the probes, used in F1, Nascar etc.
Mine has two screens,default is two egt, second choice is rpm and water temp, but it can be configured to do egt and Cyl head temp,with water and rpm.
Get the twin screen as especially with an air cooled you have to be able to review head and egt at the same time, to see deto dropping the egt as the head skyrockets.
Also has input for magnetic laptime triggering.
The caps get recharged when the bike is running - works a treat and affordable especially if you get someone in USA to buy it
and send cheap USPS to NZ.

[Brian d marge]

Those dimensions should be enough to draw it in cad.
I may have a go later for shites and giggles

If you can export the drg in STEP i can collaborate ..remember to add shrinkage

Stephen

[Yow Ling]

If you can export the drg in STEP i can collaborate ..remember to add shrinkage

Stephen

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

[dmcca]

The Digatron is a special model I got that uses Supercaps to power it for review in the pits. DT-52SRE2 DC
It has max recalls and 2Hrs of replayable datalogging on the screen or downloadable data to a PC.
Get it from Exhaust Gas Tecnologies - as they are the only guys that guarantee the probes, used in F1, Nascar etc.
Mine has two screens,default is two egt, second choice is rpm and water temp, but it can be configured to do egt and Cyl head temp,with water and rpm.
Get the twin screen as especially with an air cooled you have to be able to review head and egt at the same time, to see deto dropping the egt as the head skyrockets.
Also has input for magnetic laptime triggering.
The caps get recharged when the bike is running - works a treat and affordable especially if you get someone in USA to buy it
and send cheap USPS to NZ.

Thanks for the info

Ill email them and probably look at one of the 50 series units. Between one of these and the deto sensor you posted a while ago it should be great starting point for some reasonable non-dyno tuning

[husaberg]

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

Glue?

but those costs are for a one off if you were to spread some of them out over a run of 10 of 100cc and 10 of 125cc then the costs come down quite a bit.

What the 88 on the thread really?

Having said that it is getting real hard to finf stuff on the net that doesn't pop up with a link to the thread in some form or another.
i guess Thomas is a real hit with the ladies now with all the exposure hes getting.
688 views

[Brian d marge]

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

As a rule of thumb , double what you think and add half

Stephen

[Yow Ling]

Glue?

but those costs are for a one off if you were to spread some of them out over a run of 10 of 100cc and 10 of 125cc then the costs come down quite a bit.

What the 88 on the thread really?

if you had a run of 10 done you could argue they were competition parts

isnt this rapid prototyping , they arent exactly cheap production methods

dunno how that 88 got there, good number though

[wobbly]

Two strokers come in your pants

Deleted - political issues.