ESE's works engine tuner

[Flettner]

I know, but I just had to ask

[TZ350]

Page 780 ... Setting up an IgniTec DC-CDI-Race-2 ignition

http://ignitech.cz/english/aindex.htm

OK I was asked about getting an DC-CDI-Race-2 IgniTec Ignition to fire, this is what I remember about setting one up for the first time.

Attachment 283909

If there is no spark at all it may be that the Kill switch polarity needs reversing.

ie you have a normally closed switch for ""stop when open"" and the IgniTec might be set up for ""stop when closed"" and ""run when open"", so the Ignitec would need need to be reversed.

Also, from memory the DC-CDI-Race-2 IgniTec does not fire below 300rpm. Push starting is faster than 300rpm but spinning the back wheel over by hand may not be.

A DC-CDI-Race-2 Ignitec is voltage regulated and will not fire below 8 volts (I think) or above 18 volts. Lots of on track miss firing is due to the battery voltage dropping too low when the Ignition is revving out under load.

Attachment 283915

For accurate timing its important to have the ignition triggering of the back of the lobe, ie on a falling voltage.

You can change the polarity of the pickup here.

Attachment 283914

For a single with only one coil and pickup and firing once a revolution the setup needs to be changed.

Attachment 283912

This twin cylinder DC-CDI-Race-2 IgniTec ignition set up will now fire on only one channel, the other side is turned off.

Attachment 283907

The next step is to work out the base advance.

With the piston at TDC measure the number of degrees between the heal of the lobe and the trigger.

You only need something thats in the ball park to get started with.

An eyeball with a protractor and near enough is good enough here as it gets adjusted later.

Although you are limited to a maximum base advance of 30 deg or 40 on newer software so you might have to move the trigger to get things right.

Attachment 283911

The 21 deg base advance is entered here.

The next step is to make a flat line graph. Here we have made it 15 deg, only because we know that's what this motor likes.

Next step is to carefully put a timing mark on the flywheel at 15 deg BTDC.

And with a timing light adjust the base advance until the 15 deg flywheel timing mark lines up. When it does, that means the 15 deg ignition line is spot on.

Now when you adjust part of the curve to say 17 deg you can be pretty sure the Ignitec is firing 17 deg BTDC there.

Bucket goes through the setup routine in his post, including a short clip of him using the dyno to spin the engine over while he adjusts the base advance to get his flywheel timing marks to line up.

I got the job of setting up NedKellys IgniTech programmable Ignition.

If your not lucky enough to have a bike that Igni make a drop on ignition for then you have to setup one for yourself.

This is how we went about it with one of Team ESE's bikes and Mt Eden Motorcycles dyno. Chambers is friendly with Mike and was able to get a bit of a deal on some dyno time.

Attachment 223239

First step is to find TDC.

Attachment 223240

Mark TDC and the Advance you want, we chose 15 degrees BTDC. and marked them on the fly wheel, the flywheel turns ant-clock wise so the advance is marked to the left of the TDC mark.

This does not have to be that accurate as its only needed as guide so you can see that the ignition is firing somewhere near the right place. The ignition will be optimized on the dyno later.

Attachment 223236

The next move is to find the base advance.

Attachment 223238

Ours was about 10 Degrees.

Attachment 223237

The base advance is entered into one of those little box's in the program and initially the real advance is setup as a straight line in the curve part of the IgniTech program.

Attachment 223242

With the ignition programed and the spark plug out, (but plugged into the HT lead and resting on the head) you can then use the Dyno's starter to spin the engine over. Then with the motor spinning over you can use a timing light see if you have got the initial advance more or less where you want it.

If the advance lines dont line up, you simply adjust the base advance setting and cylinder correction until they do.



With the initial advance setup more or less where you want it, you are ready to rock and roll on the dyno optimizing the ignition curve.

The IgniTech software is very clever as changes to the ignition curve can be made on the fly and the Ignition itself re-programed while the engine is still running............

An Ignitech will fire below 300 rpm if its connected to a battery.You can simply spin the rotor lobe back and forth past the trigger by hand and it will fire.

Also the RACE box has a test page where you can press a screen button and fire each channel to check everything is working electrically - past the trigger input.

Once the rotor is spinning, the input screen will automatically show the trigger polarity, so you can change it, or simply use auto that selects the trailing edge by default.

Again I say for the 1000th time - YOU MUST USE A RESISTOR PLUG AND CAP.

Nearly every day I get to fix these bloody things playing up simply due to this rule being ignored.

The other thing that can cause problems is keeping the coil drive wire away from TPS and power wiring,if not done you get false input triggering that makes the rpm as seen by the ECU double or treble in value - it then invokes the rpm limiter and suddenly we have a " misfire " at 4000 rpm that shows as 12,000 on the screen.

But alot of this can be "seen " on the screen when the engine is running and is easy to diagnose.

Stainless pipes are an absolute bitch to make due to the material stiffness, use 304 as its soft and you MUST use gas purge inside the chamber or the welds will be shit and it will crack.
The material has no performance advantage over mild, it dissipates heat a little differently, but for a road bike it does look nice.

I run an ignitec, fires ethanol under high comp no problem. In fact the unit has been trouble free, not even fouled a single plug in two years of tuning on ethanol.

Only problem I did find is if you use the coils Wobbly supplies just check that they are not open circuit before you use them, although I would say he puts the meter over them now before they are sent out.

Super adjustability, great for engines that are a little bit different. Cost effective too. I'll be trying one of the Ignijet ( EFI and CDI all in one box ) units shortly, can't wait!

Pictures of the Saturday Epic Events trail ride, only EFI twostroke entered, imagine that.
A lot of modern fourstroke bikes lying on the side of the track? F9 never stopped once, this bike is a lot of fun to ride!

The thing that got me was a newbie mistake. I didn't have the "Programming after Change" box ticked so any changes I made were on the screen & not pushed through to the box, unlike the old Zeel programmer I have where you can change on the fly but have to save at the end, the Ignitech you have the choice, but you have to be aware of it.

really the documentation is pants, but as you said, is obvious once you've shagged around.

Hmm, I've just got mine set to Classic, so do I need to set up in special as a single, or just leave the input open never getting a signal?

I'm struggling to get a Baseline sorted. It looks stable spinning the back wheel by hand but adjusting the baseline on the PC doesn't seem to change the position. I've even taken the rotor off & moved it as it seemed to be out of range, even though I have the same setup as Mike's MB (& have to remark 15deg). PS mine is the P2.

You cant leave the " input open never getting a signal ", the P2 will always fire both CDI with a single pickup when in classic mode.

The unused CDI will eventually die if it is run continuously without a coil connected. Thats why I gave everyone the info on turning off the second cdi in the software.

Even easyer is to simply leave the ecu as its programmed, and parallel the cdi outputs into one coil.

That way you get twice the spark energy at the plug, as Niel has used forever on his F9 injection Ethanol burner.

The arc over voltage is the same but depending upon the inductance of the coil you will get up to 4 times the burn time of the arc as the caps discharge into the ionised gap.

As you say you can run program after change, but I prefer to do all the changes, check them,save the file with a new name, THEN program the box and finally hit " verify ".

This does a checksum, to confirm whats in the ecu matches the screen.

So connect both outputs. What about the other input wire?

I leave mine disconnected.....

Easy for anyone to go online to Ignitech and read the manual, but to be fair also they dont, and should, have in big red capitals a line saying

" IF YOU DONT USE A RESISTOR PLUG AND CAP IT WILL SHIT ITS PANTS ".

P2 or Race - or any electronic ECU system needs RF suppression - all TZ and RS race engines have them from the factory.

All plugs including short reach are available in resistor 5K config, and I have seen a 10K resistor cap, that would work without a resistor plug as well.

Another option is to use spiral wound coil wire, made for race CDI systems such as MSD or better, I have run this without a resistor cap on the twin fire system using a race resistor plug and it worked fine.

There are a lot of little things they don't say in the manwell, I wasted a night trying to get a spark just because I didn't click that you needed to push the changes into the CDI. Sounds obvious when you have played with it, but when you are looking at something on a screen & you change it, you assume it is changed. Why no Worky? There is no mention of the single set up, so thanks for that info, but what of the other input?

The first changeable point available is 300 rpm, it fires on the base advance up to 300 then switches to the programmed curve.

Its easy to set a straight line at TDC ie 0* advance,as then you can do it just with a DTI in the plug hole - no protractor or calculations needed.

Set it at TDC and mark the rotor and stator with a felt pen line.

Leave the plug connected on the head, but not screwed in , and its easy to spin the rotor with an electric drill and a socket on the rotor nut - no racket involved, kids snore on unaware.

Strobe the lines - advancing the base advance retards the firing point.

I like to keep the base advance near 10* then there is little chance of it kicking back and trying to start in reverse.
All this is super easy on the dyno of course using the starter on the roller to spin it over.

DO NOT run the charging circuit without a battery or a capacitor .

Without a load the rec/reg can fire out up to 80V and then some smoke comes out of the Ignitech.
With no smoke inside it tends not to work at all, and yes I can tell if this nastyness has been inflicted on the poor thing ,so then it will cost money to fix.

The Ignitech DC CDI P2 ( or RACE ) was designed for a 2T ( like a Rotax tandem for example ) using low ohm coils driven by a capacitor.
They make the usual 12V switching units as well, but both can be programmed easily for non waste spark on a 4T by using a cam sensor that identifies cylinder 1.
I have built both systems on old Ducati Bevels and running waste spark on a slow reving 4T works fine without the complexity of having to make a cam sensor setup, just two sensors
in the side cover at 90* with a single rotor lobe.
The CDI system makes identical power to the 12V on a dyno, but the riders swear ( alot ) that the cdi feels better on track re throttle response.
PS - never heard of a tandem twin 4T, enlighten me?

There are several issues that I have worked thru to get the Ignitech to work its best.

Firstly is that they like low impedance coils - that is low DC resistance ( 0.2 ohm or less ) primary and a high inductance secondary.
The Suzuki RGV or Aprilia RS125/250 are the best common coils available, but I have used Crane PS92N cdi coils on Methanol burning Hydros where spark power is super important.

Stock Honda RS125/250 and CR250 coils are way too high resistance/low inductance to work well with this type of DC CDI.
Using both cdi to drive one coil doubles the effective energy available at the plug, and this is the way to get more power from say a RS125 Honda, especially if you swap out the coil.

Lastly using simply a battery alone isnt the go at all.
The voltage drops quickly under load with this setup, the DC CDIs work best when run with a battery that is being charged by the alternator at 14.2V continuously.

There is only one setup of MX rotor and stator that will drive sufficient current into an Ignitech for it to work best when using a cap instead of a battery.
The stator must have a 2 ohm winding and the rotor must be the later type with super strong magnets - you can feel them " clunk " over each pole as you rotate the rotor by hand.

You can see the voltage at the CDI drop ( on the computer screen ) during a dyno run - if the power supply isnt working as it should.
And as usual, the posts reveal that they werent using a resistor plug and cap as Seb4LO also pointed out, along with using the proper NGK race plugs.

So the spark would be all over the shop, not at the correct time to make power.
I dont know the exact calculation sequence the software uses, but I have found by trial and error that the best setup if possible,is to ensure that the addition of the base advance to the lobe duration should be around the max advance used in the curve.

Having said that I have built several CR250 kart engines that have stock 6* of base and around 15* of lobe length, but the engine strobed exactly showing the 32* max advance as programmed.

And lastly I found that a lobe longer than around 20* length makes the calculations go haywire, and it will misfire badly at one rpm, then go perfectly well everywhere else.

There is a software button that says " wide lobe " and also one that says " no lobe length check ", but trying to translate from Czech what these actually do is impossible.

I simply cut the lobe length in 1/2 and it worked perfectly.

- you can use twinfire as I call it, dumping 2 cdi into 1 coil in a twin - by purchasing a DC CDI P4.

This has 4 cdi in one box ( twice the size ) and uses a rather older version of TCIP4 software, but does everything you would need.

You will need some serious power supply capability to keep that system from pulling down the voltage.

Im doing exactly that in the new TZ400 im building with two of the huge Crane coils.

The twin fire setup does not add any voltage at the plug.

The two cdi output capacitors in parallel,simply doubles the available stored energy.
This translates into exactly the same arc over performance but increases the burn time duration, as the caps energy is drained into the ionised gap.

The only other way to increase burn length is to increase the inductance of the coil.

Using a PC based oscilloscope with an ignition analysis app, I saw the burn duration at x4 using twinfire and a Crane coil, over a standard single cdi and RS125 coil.

[bucketracer]

I don't doubt that those involved with the most progressive performance development class are a bit dismayed that they have missed out ...

Sure the Buckets need to pull finger with their paper work, but I think your right about it being the most progressive performance development class.

Where else can you be totaly involved in every aspect of race bike development and see fields of 40+ on the grid, no not talking about combined classes to make up the numbers but all 40 from one class, F4, don't see that anywhere else in MNZ do you.

[Billy]

Sure the Buckets need to pull finger with their paper work, but I think your right about it being the most progressive performance development class.

Where else can you be totaly involved in every aspect of race bike development and see fields of 40+ on the grid, no not talking about combined classes to make up the numbers but all 40 from one class, F4, don't see that anywhere else in MNZ do you.

So pull finger with the paperwork and problem sorted.If everybody works together,I'm sure it will work out,But don't think for one minute I have all day to run around second guessing everybody elses ideas,If I get some input to work with I can help,If I don't...well simple from there really

[jasonu]

Conspiracy????? Hahahaha,Jezz some of you guys really need to get a life,

The member I entrusted to make the call has far more experience in motorsport than most,2 wheeled and 4,He had a valid reason for his decision based on experiences encountered with some who have allowed the use of E85,I am more than comfortable with his decision and the basis for it,If people aren't going to become more involved with the rule making process,Then I guess they just have to put up with whatever we decide,ENJOY.

How about some info on this person and the reasons behind the decisions. It is all very well to make statements like the above but without knowing the reasons behind the decisions and the hint of 'if you don't like it then tough' ...

[kel]

How about some info on this person and the reasons behind the decisions. It is all very well to make statements like the above but without knowing the reasons behind the decisions and the hint of 'if you don't like it then tough' ...

Slow down Jason. Billy states that MNZ was not approached about E85. He does however encourage us to follow due process if we want a result.
Strangely enough I had followed correct procedure and was of the understanding my proposed rule change would be submitted by the Auckland club, Im guess its still sitting on someones desk.
The no alcohol no additives bit needs to be removed from 24-2-5. The rule would seem to be there to stop bucket racers brewing their own fuels with God knows what, but its out dated. Alcohol, or more correctly Ethanol, is in pump fuel hence the suggestion that all commercially available pump fuels be allowed. Guess I'll try again next year.

Actually, would bucket racers really care what fuel is used if its genuinely pump fuel? After all pump fuel will never match the $12/ltr Elf unleaded stuff which is legal.

[TZ350]

I had followed correct procedure and was of the understanding my proposed rule change would be submitted by the Auckland club, I guess its still sitting on someones desk.

My thoughts too, I think Cully plans on finding out ....

[Grumph]

Slow down Jason. Billy states that MNZ was not approached about E85. He does however encourage us to follow due process if we want a result.
Strangely enough I had followed correct procedure and was of the understanding my proposed rule change would be submitted by the Auckland club, Im guess its still sitting on someones desk.
The no alcohol no additives bit needs to be removed from 24-2-5. The rule would seem to be there to stop bucket racers brewing their own fuels with God knows what, but its out dated. Alcohol, or more correctly Ethanol, is in pump fuel hence the suggestion that all commercially available pump fuels be allowed. Guess I'll try again next year.

Actually, would bucket racers really care what fuel is used if its genuinely pump fuel? After all pump fuel will never match the $12/ltr Elf unleaded stuff which is legal.

That's the problem in a nutshell - who's representing buckets at the MNZ conference this weekend ? Deafening silence here....

If the SI boys would take the next step and affiliate as an MNZ club instead of hanging on the coattails of other clubs there's one voice. I assume there are enough up North to form another club for affiliation. Just do it.

[Buddha#81:Me]

That's the problem in a nutshell - who's representing buckets at the MNZ conference this weekend ? Deafening silence here...

If the SI boys would take the next step and affiliate as an MNZ club instead of hanging on the coattails of other clubs there's one voice. I assume there are enough up North to form another club for affiliation. Just do it.

Problem is no one wants to run the club let alone drive it forward. There now seems to be at least two groups and other than the odd cams meeting or street race its that disjointed it would take a lot of effort to sort it out. For a laugh i suggested we finish the club and spend what we have in the bank, i think it got two replies, no one cares as long as we get to ride.
How many of the north island meets are run under a MNZ permit anyway?

[FastFred]

Billy states that MNZ was not approached about E85. I had followed correct procedure and was of the understanding my proposed rule change would be submitted by the Auckland club, Im guess its still sitting on someones desk.

This is what I know:-

Because the Auckland club sectary was away the proposal was entrusted to the club president to pass to the club sectary on their return so it could be submitted in the proper manner to MNZ, there was plenty of time.

Maybe it made it to MNZ, it would be interesting to know.

[Buddha#81:Me]

This is what I know:-

Because the Auckland club sectary was away the proposal was entrusted to the club president to pass to the club sectary on their return so it could be submitted in the proper manner to MNZ, there was plenty of time.

And this is how I see it:-

1) Buckets at Auckland make up more numbers (read club fees) than any other class.

2) Bucket meetings make a profit and always return money to the club.

3) A lot of big bike meetings run at a loss, therefore Buckets subsidizes them.

4) Its only tradition that Bucketeers associate with the Auckland club.

5) Bucketeers run their own meetings with no input from the wider Auckland club.

6) Buckets could quite easily fit in with a MX club affiliated with MNZ. We only need the organizational structure as an umbrella for our racing, we are used to organizing meetings for ourselves.

7) If the remit did not get to MNZ it would add weight to the perception that the Auckland Motor Cycle Club does not seem to value their Bucket members enough to promote their cause.

8) The Auckland club likes the steady income from Buckets.

9) But Buckets as a racing concept does not really need the Auckland Motorcycle Club, and as a group could probably go somewhere else.

Any MX club out there that would like 40 - 60 new members and a steady income from Miniature Road Race events.

We have had a simular situation down here with the bears club taking the money they got from the 40 odd bucket guys turning up to their meetings and treating us like something that grows on the bottom of a boat. Some of us moved on after trying to change things and getting burnt off doing it. Motorcycling Canterbury Inc welcomed us that left with open arms and continue to treat us as equals. Good luck but some organisations just dont see a good thing and willmake any excuse they like when they lose it!

[Billy]

This is what I know:-

Because the Auckland club sectary was away the proposal was entrusted to the club president to pass to the club sectary on their return so it could be submitted in the proper manner to MNZ, there was plenty of time.

Maybe it made it to MNZ, it would be interesting to know.

Hell I can answer that for you....NO,It did not come through my inbox,Either of them,The only discussion I had was with a guy from R&R Motorsports I think was the name he put forward,But no submission was ever recieved,Doubt that Graham Bastow would have left it out if it was presented too him in the correct time frame.Not suggesting your telling porkies,But it may have been to late

[Billy]

How about some info on this person and the reasons behind the decisions. It is all very well to make statements like the above but without knowing the reasons behind the decisions and the hint of 'if you don't like it then tough' ...

Hi Jason,

Heres a tip,If you don't think I'm doing my job or are somehow thumbing my nose at the bucket scene,Lay an official complaint with the MNZ office,Don't forget to quote your licence number.

[FastFred]

Not suggesting your telling porkies,But it may have been to late

No no, I am not suggesting your telling porkies either, I have just related what I know so far, and the process had a few steps to it before it got to MNZ, lets see what unfolds.

[kel]

Actually, would bucket racers really care what fuel is used if its genuinely pump fuel? After all pump fuel will never match the $12/ltr Elf unleaded stuff which is legal.

How about we take this over here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130551111
Sorry, haven't bothered to find out how to link between threads