Lest we forget... New Zealand's shame

[short-circuit]

"Bob" (or whoever you are) you ploker. If you really think you're correct in saying that "I really don't have a fuckin clue about SST" then why don't you "educate" me and the rest of us ignoramuses.

Instead you (of course) respond by trying to sanction me with a little red dot and a derogatory comment. You (at least) prove my assertion right with your (instinctive) hostile and punitive response. Did I get under under your skin Bob?

Is that how you teach your children too? Is that what you do with your wife when she disagrees with you? Are you only different by degrees to the people you are indignant and outraged toward?

Funny how many (not all) SSTers are people opposed to the repeal of section 59 of the crimes act. As I have already stated answers to protecting children (people) from violence lie way beyond being equally violent toward perpetrators. It doesn't even make you feel any better in the long run does it Bob?

[candor]

Just so people know, I'm not Bob. But the uncensored reply to Bob cracks me up, on so many levels. Thankyou.

[Genestho]

"Bob" (or whoever you are) you ploker. If you really think you're correct in saying that "I really don't have a fuckin clue about SST" then why don't you "educate" me and the rest of us ignoramuses.

Instead you (of course) respond by trying to sanction me with a little red dot and a derogatory comment. You (at least) prove my assertion right with your (instinctive) hostile and punitive response. Did I get under under your skin Bob?

Is that how you teach your children too? Is that what you do with your wife when she disagrees with you? Are you only different by degrees to the people you are indignant and outraged toward?

Funny how many (not all) SSTers are people opposed to the repeal of section 59 of the crimes act. As I have already stated answers to protecting children (people) from violence lie way beyond being equally violent toward perpetrators. It doesn't even make you feel any better in the long run does it Bob?

Im involved with SST because of the death of my husband, being a 4x convicted recidivist drink driver...and if I dont know how many people in SST oppose the ammendment to section 59, then I sure as hell dont understand how you think you know, thus spreading your incorrect propoganda.

I personally dont know much about SST's involvment in the opposition to the ammendment to section 59, but maybe? the point is that it doesn't focus on dealing with the murderers or abusers like the cases that headed this thread up.

Childless MP's telling ordinary people how to deal with a "two year old throwing a tanty" seems invasive to ordinary NZ'ers that maybe feel like they've been doing an ok job of bringing their children up.

The otherside to that is there is a US study dated 2006 that shows in the long term this bill could prevent big numbers in the future for our prisons.

That if your poor and often hit as a child your more likely to endup in prison.


What section 59 will do is prevent the assaulting parents who get caught from getting off by claiming that they were simply using “reasonable force”

I think the only way you sir (or anybody else misguided by people not in the know), would understand SST clearly and know the work they do, is to have the ability to attend a conference, and see it for yourself.
It comes at a price though - you have to have a loved one killed.

They could choose to do nothing but instead they choose to do something and its not for themselves, they have acheived alot of good and practical things for this country and will continue to do so.

[Forest]

And, th next day

Plus la change, plus la meme chose.

Given that you've corrected my grammar in previous posts, I shall return the favour.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose!

[Ixion]

Ah, that's Frog y'see, I don't do proper Frog. Cos it's not really a proper language , like da england.

[SARGE]

Just so you know - I can't give you bling - I ran out. And dammit - you already have my respect. What now?

MDU

lapdance???

[alanzs]

And, unfortunately, their children also if over about seven years.

The only solution is to remove them. Permanently. And the children , if over about seven years , will also be too much scarred, leaving them would simply perpetuate the problem into another generation.Regrettable, but you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Seven seems too old...

[Headbanger]

For centuries society accepted taking children away from bad/incompetant/sick parents. Look at the Stolen Generation debate, and the children shipped from England to Australia etc.

Just on this one point, I heard on the radio a few days back that more aboriginal children are removed from their homes each week now then back in the days of the "stolen generation"

[Headbanger]

One hell-of-a-tough thread.

I'm a big ugly guy, expected to be the rock when shit gets rough, But just reading about child abuse puts my head into spaces I can't bear to be in.

All those who have given something of themselves in order to help those children have my greatest respect.

[Number One]

One hell-of-a-tough thread.

I'm a big ugly guy, expected to be the rock when shit gets rough, But just reading about child abuse puts my head into spaces I can't bear to be in.

All those who have given something of themselves in order to help those children have my greatest respect.

+100

I can't even read this thread - I have read a lot of these tales of woe (including coroners reports on a few) and I only know that if something went down in front of me I would hard pressed not to react in some way.

I did tell a woman in pak n save once that I thought the way she had yanked and yelled at her child was a bit over the top. I got the very expected reply of 'mind your own fucking business bitch' Poor kid It really was over the top and from observing them all the way around the supermarket the kid was actually really well behaved and didn't do anything to provoke the reaction it kept getting. I had to turn and go the other way after a while as I found my blood boiling just watching this ignorant hick being such a vile biarch to her baby. I just don't get it at all.

[Skyryder]

+100

I can't even read this thread - I have read a lot of these tales of woe (including coroners reports on a few) and I only know that if something went down in front of me I would hard pressed not to react in some way.

I did tell a woman in pak n save once that I thought the way she had yanked and yelled at her child was a bit over the top. I got the very expected reply of 'mind your own fucking business bitch' Poor kid It really was over the top and from observing them all the way around the supermarket the kid was actually really well behaved and didn't do anything to provoke the reaction it kept getting. I had to turn and go the other way after a while as I found my blood boiling just watching this ignorant hick being such a vile biarch to her baby. I just don't get it at all.

Yep seen much the same when driving buses. I had a go at one silly mother who allowed her child to come running up to the bus as I was pulling into to the kerb. The kid only had to trip to go under the wheels. When I tried to explain this I just got so much abuse for pulling in to fast. Shit any slower and I'dve been going backwards.

One thing I've noticed when people say that it is societies fault and we should 'all' get involved is that I don't see much involvement from the 'better off' classes in our society and it's the judges, social workers etc that criticise the rest of us. Most of us do what we can but we can not be everywhere.

Skyryder

[Headbanger]

i have an aunty in Australia who has fostered children for 30 years, she "specialises" in the worst case children, sexually abused,drug addicted, and violence. She is frequently used as emergency accommodation for kids that are seized during police operations.

I couldn't put into words what I have seen there, These kids, so damaged, scarred, destroyed, brain damaged,some of them just don't even have a human aura around them if that makes any sense. and I only ever visited the place a half a dozen times.

A number of the kids have been returned to their parents and killed, many more are repeatedly returned and then siezed again, more damaged each and every time.

How do you relate to a heroin addicted 4 year old who has been beaten and raped his entire life?, Its enough to rip you apart,Then you see them at 16 trying to loive within our society, fuck n hell, There are no words.


I'd kill the fucks who mistreat children.

[Number One]

I'd kill the fucks who mistreat children.

YUP - kill them alright. NO MERCY. I have a few special tortures dreamed up for these kind of people.

Scares me shitless though - if anyone ever out a hand in the wrong place on my boy I know I would need some staunch friends around me to stop me from exacting some 'Creative and Merciless justice' Number One styles. Course I wouldn't be any good to my boy in jail but I really can't see how I could control that kind of RAGE.

[devnull]

Why is it that in damn near every thread about child abuse some dickhead brings up Bradford's S.59 reform bill?

It was never about child abuse. The control of a population via their kids is not a new or novel concept. And it's part of Bradford's political bias. I wouldn't be holding her up as a model parent - her record speaks for itself.

Anyone that can't differentiate between responsible discipline as part of parenting, and child abuse, needs to be forcibly sterilised.

Kids are killed in their homes, and also abused and killed in govt agency "care"

The NZ system is so fucked up it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up...

If you see a kid being abused, first of all, understand what abuse is, then do something about it. (A smack on the bum for snatching goods in a supermarket usually isn't abuse - neither is grabbing a kid that tries to bolt across a busy road. Yet both of these examples have involved police)

I agree with headbanger - these pricks that torture and kill kids should die.

Offer harm to my kids, and I can guarantee a slow and unpleasant death.... Until such time as we get a JUSTICE system to replace the crappy LEGAL system we have, I reckon I'd have no other alternative

[candor]

Hmm, a bit of reading around this reveals that Nias dad had the mental age of 11 - though I'd say that is being generous. He was also engaged in some kind of "sibling rivalry" with his kid and jealous of any attention Mum lavished. So he would have ensured Nia was relegated to the bottom ranking in the wolf pack within which might is normal and right.

http://www.justlikehisfather.com/author.html
This lady J Leedom wrote a book on parenting kids with psychopathic genes / tendencies after accidentally breeding with a psychopath who passed himself off as a Dr (shes a psychiatrist).

The role of environment in pushing up the risk rating of psychopathy taking hold is fairly well covered in this article "neglect the child - damage the adult".
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/home-life/...544651&ref=rss

As an opinion piece it recommends sterilising the underclass. But shows a misunderstanding in saying you expected to see evil psychopaths in the dock at Nias trial but instead saw pitiful inadequates. Hello - one and the same. Evil doesn't come with horns - it is simply a void where "goodness, values and ability to transcend ones own basic ego and selfishness" lies.

A void created by lack of ability to attach and therefore to empathise, love or feel for others. Or at least to do so in anything but a superficial faked charming glib artificial self serving way. Creating a mimicry or a hologram of being what most of us regard as human.

Psychopaths are cold blooded and like reptiles work on 2 emotions (fear / anger sourced in greed to have / be / seem more) and 2 principles - gain pleasure / reduce pain or any negative thing for themselves. A bad emotion transferred is a problem no more. Make me feel bad baby (or insert wife/ dog), I'll reflexively transfer that emotion into you.

That includes stomping out crying babies with demands or random strangers walking by looking content (should that image make them feel "less than" or in any way discomforted). One very good way to put psychopathy in a nutshell is a definition offered up by a naval gazing psychopath who has cut an expert niche out for himself by writing books on the matter.

Sam Vaknins work sums the matter up as people with inflated egos who suffer "envy aggression" if they feel others are getting more goodies in life.

Strictly speaking though the sterilising being recommended by the Herald journo is overkill, as most underclass members aren't psychopaths likely to kill offspring just as well as random strangers. Only about 1-4% of populations in developed countries are thought to be psychopaths. Its surprisingly common and underrecognised especially so in upper social classes eg with wife and kid killer Mark Lundy no one started ranting about brown people, or that dratted middle class.

Most raised in abyssmal circumstances don't become abusers and killers - as they may not have the genes that contribute to develpment of the nasty personality type, and as even one positive influence can make a large difference (so research says). And some raised in OK ways still have the gene out.

But we know how to identify those on track to infamy and a set misanthropic character at a young age. Many are the signs among little boys - who are more prone to develop with no attachment ability (to those beyond their skin) if raised midst violence or emotional neglect. It can be reversed if there is intensive intervention particularly by 7. Even hope is there up to 12, but only if the child is removed and placed in intensive programs like that run at McKenzie residential school in Christchurch.

What is more dificult is identifying and setting on track the women who will become their victims.... and (when kids are involved) their dominated / enlisted help.

A program is run overseas called "success by seven" which aims to co-ordinate charities, govt and community help to all zoom in on aiding specific kids and families at risk (read psychopath parents), with the goal of at risk kids not being diagnosable as pre psychopaths at 7. This works in the form of those with skills or goods eg psychologists or local businesses donating time, advice, babysitting, counselling re good parenting methods, xmas pressies or just whatever is needed to help lift a screwy families standards to a non sabotaging environment for child life.

Some families can be helped - though a psychopath parent will always present a danger risk, that risk can sometimes be managed so as to be minimised and not to be passed on - but only if the dodgy parents are open to admit issues and to help. It often means a seperatyion and no child contact with the bad guy for best results (as recommended by Leedom and other experts).

Some should never see kids or society again and instead be confined to living with the risks posed and accepted by their own type in jail. But some can be worked with.

I think the ones having psychopathy combined with frontal lobe head injury which has affected aggressive impulse control (likely as result of being child abused) would tend more to fit the too high risk class, especially if they've done the deed of a major or fatal injury to the vulnerable.

It seems most of these cases involve psychopathy - also known as antisocial personality type, but some don't. Some involve genuine mental disorders where people don't know the quality of what they do eg postnatal psychosis. Make no mistake - psychopaths do know what they do and are calculating, they are under no delusions the kid is the devil or anything. They just have a nasty moral and behavioural code. And conduct often supported by people of similar ilk, or under their sway.