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Thread: Countersteering and leaning

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodney007 View Post
    oh great asking about counter-steering and leaning on this forum is like asking a chicken about eggs..


    dont take any advice..... get on your bike and ride it....... get someone to show you how to change gear if you dont know how already

    the rest will come naturally... no point activly thinking about countersteer...youl crash
    Yes, ignorance s bliss, too much knowledge is a dangerous thing. Get you killed it will.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tank
    You say "no one wants to fuck with some large bloke on a really angry sounding bike" but the truth of the matter is that you are a balding middle-aged ice-cream seller from Edgecume who wears a hello kitty t-shirt (in your profile pic) and your angry sounding bike is a fucken hyoshit - not some big assed harley with a human skull on the front.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJK View Post
    Did you know that you can counter steer on a bicycles aswell? OMG Thats so cool!!!!
    Yup... Amazing how many cyclists don't know how to ride a bike either....

    Check out the pic I posted here.

    Oh, and if you want to pracise without burning up fuel then get the front wheel off your bicycle, spin it up, and try to change it'e direction while holding onto the axle....
    Note what happens.

    Yep, this is what it takes to change the direction of any Gyro.....
    Not you know why halicopter techs are so smart
    Last edited by quickbuck; 14th December 2008 at 20:49. Reason: more info

  3. #63
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    Ok. First post here. After reading some of this, I just had to!!

    1) Inline, two wheel, vehicles countersteer to enter a turn at any sort of reasonable speed. Basically, if you are going fast enough to have any lean angle, you will have involuntary countersteer at the turn initiation. You just may not realise it. This is simple physics, its related to gyroscopic effect, and you do it whether you know it or not.

    IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.

    In reality, look where you want to go, lean into the corner, and the bike will actually do the countersteer it needs to, and drop into the corner.

    However, countersteering as an ACTIVE control (as opposed to relatively passive, as above) is a very useful technique. It allows rapid change of direction (eg to miss something on the road), gives you more accuracy in setting up the bike into a turn, and allows you to get the bike into a turn more rapidly than just trying to move your weight.

    The suggestion to do it initially, in a straight line (normal town speed should be fine), is fine. Try it initially with slow, progressive, short pushes on the bar in the direction you want to go and see what happens. EG if you want to veer left, then push on the left bar (taking up the 'slack' with your right arm as that bar comes towards you. EG dont let the other bar flop around, keep it under control). Then try it a little bit faster, and a little bit sharper.

    Obviously dont go crazy with your inputs and like everything in bikes, learn to go fast slowly! However, if you arent putting body position or lean into the equation, you can actually be reasonably rough with your countersteering as the gyroscopic effect counteracts the forces you are trying to input.

    Have a read of this as well, and the links off of it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

    HTH
    Rob.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by robboh View Post
    IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.
    When my daughter was about 8 years old, she was out on a field learning how to ride a bicycle. She'd go for 15 m then turn the handlebars and fall off. She was getting pretty frustrated: "I can't steer it!" I told her not to try to steer it, just let it go where it wanted (there was nothing to run into) and try to keep on top of it. That solved the problem instantly.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by robboh View Post

    IMHO, one of the biggest mistakes parents make is giving kids a trike prior to teaching them how to ride a push bike. With trikes, as cars, you steer the direction you want to go. With two wheels, you go where you want to go with a combination of lean and countersteer.
    Heck, never thought of that.....
    Training wheels promote bad things too...

  6. #66
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    just ride the damn thing!!

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by robboh View Post

    In reality, look where you want to go, lean into the corner, and the bike will actually do the countersteer it needs to, and drop into the corner.



    HTH
    Rob.
    In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laxi View Post
    just ride the damn thing!!
    Well that's helpful...... No good if you don't know how.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....
    It does on all bikes.
    On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    It does on all bikes.
    On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.
    good point ,therefore more noticeable i guess...

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    good point ,therefore more noticeable i guess...
    Exactly right.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by quickbuck View Post
    It does on all bikes.
    On bigger bikes (well actually bikes with heavier wheels), the forces required are more.
    Correct. It is the counter-steer which initiates the turn.

    However, you can cause counter-steer (and thus turn initiation) by leaning.

    Try it sometime (NICE smooth carpark, slow speed, and lots of room please). Take you hands off the bars a little, to ensure you arent unwittingly applying countersteer (i can guarantee that you do countersteer, without realising it). And then try pressing one or other of your footpegs.

    You will probably find it will take more effort than you would exect, but you should be able to cause a turn to initiate with just footpeg pressure. The faster you are going, the harder you will find this, due to the gyroscopic effect. This is why, at higher speeds, and heavier bikes, you will find countersteering becoming a more useful tool. However, for reasons previously stated in this thread, counter-steering is a very useful arrow to have in your quiver.

    In flying, this is called secondary effects of controls. Aileron causes yaw as well as roll. Rudder causes roll as well as yaw. Etc.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by robboh View Post

    However, you can cause counter-steer (and thus turn initiation) by leaning.


    ....counter-steering is a very useful arrow to have in your quiver.
    As said many times before, to turn at any speed more than approx 15kph, counter steering must occur.
    There are two ways to achieve it...
    1. Passive...by leaning, or applying peg pressure, or by knee pressure on the tank
    2. Positive...by push or pull on the bars.
    I assume you mean #2 by '...useful arrow...' ? Because #1 by it's very nature is too relaxed and imprecise. But valuable when used in conjunction with #2, by increasing the effect applied deliberately.
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    In reality (esp on bigger heavier bikes at speed) i think the countersteer actually initiates the lean....
    I don't understand the CS physics and also thought that the CS initiates the turn...

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    As said many times before, to turn at any speed more than approx 15kph, counter steering must occur.
    There are two ways to achieve it...
    1. Passive...by leaning, or applying peg pressure, or by knee pressure on the tank
    2. Positive...by push or pull on the bars.
    I assume you mean #2 by '...useful arrow...' ? Because #1 by it's very nature is too relaxed and imprecise. But valuable when used in conjunction with #2, by increasing the effect applied deliberately.
    Very much agree, re: #2.

    If you arent going fast enough to need to lean, then the physics dont require countersteer, and the bike will steer like a tricycle.

    Lean / knee / peg weight are 'fine tuning' positive actions IMHO. However, if applied by themselves, a countersteer will eventually occur as a secondary effect to your input, and the bike will then initiate a turn. But it will be slow, vague, and unpredictable.

    In combination with the bar push-pull, they provide very useful tuning to setting up for the corner, and each (or the relative combinations) will be applicable in different situations.

    What I was trying to get at with 'passive' countersteer is that people automatically put in the counter-steer needed to turn if they look where they want to go, drop the inside shoulder a little, and lean into the corner. In other words, just ride the bike.

    You dont NEED to know about countersteer to ride a push bike, you just do it without your noticing once your body figured out what was needed subconciously (ie getting your 'balance'). No-one ever told you how to countersteer a pushbike did they?

    But without having active countersteering as a tool, you arent really TELLING the bike exactly what to do, if you ride like that. You are just giving vauge wishy-washy 'i think i want to turn' indications to the bike, not positive 'you are turning NOW dammit' actions.

    However, KNOWING about 'active' countersteer at the bars (and the secondaries), PRACTISING it, and knowing when/how/why to use it is important IMHO. Probably one of the most important skills to learn when starting to work on improving your riding. Which is why I cant believe there were people being actively told NOT to practise it or use it earlier in this thread.

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