90-day stand down

[Ixion]

Are we having fun or whut! Can't agree about the wage costs percentage. Even in low wage jobs like McDonalds and supermarkets, wages can amount to 19% of business costs. Actually the really efficent businesses are in IT and NZ doesn't have much of that.

Generally wages as a business cost run from 20% - 50%.

See post 109 .

Data from the Harbour Report - the industry's gold standard - reveal that even including their benefits, labour costs in the Big Three's plants account for less than 10 percent of the sticker price.

http://www.truthout.org/120908LA

You were talking Japan. The general nature of Japanese industry is not McDonalds. Wage costs as a percentage of total will be far lower in a complex automated manufacturing industry than in McDonalds, which is a service industry. In general prime cost (which is materials PLUS labour) in a manufacturing industry will run around 30% odd. Materials is usually around 25%.Obviously there may be considerable variations.

I guess here is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I simply do not believe that the average Kiwi would gain a job with the intention beforehand of slacking around and walking out after 90 days. Its dishonest and against human nature.

We all need security of income. A job is much more than wages - it gives a sense of satisfaction, self-worth, camaraderie, and stability. Why would any person jepordise that by jumping every 90 days? The tiny tiny number of people who would do that aren't people the average employer wants anyway.

But you would willing accept that the average Kiwi would offer someone a job with the intention of getting all he can from them for 90 days then kicking them into touch? (If that's not the intention, then why are they demanding the law allow them to?) . Why would they jepordise that by jumping every 90 days? Better to jump than be pushed. And "90 days and fire 'em" employers are hardly like to engender much of "satisfaction, self-worth, camaraderie, and stability"

[mstriumph]

This is an entirely separate problem and one that can only be solved by not having pay rates reflect the hierarchical structure. Yes, that means workers being paid more than bosses; bosses being promoted to actually working (if capable); and a change in corporate culture that means managers get seen as part of the support infrastructure for the workers and not the other way round.

Dave

... is there an echo in here?

[Brian d marge]

and therein lies the problem
to coin a phrase, people rise to their level of incompetence
.*

hear hear !


Now on to the Japanese , The reason why Japans business culture works is because the good lord wired the little buggers all wrong ,,

Its hard wired into them that everything has its place and must be done in that way...

Thats why those Kan ban or just in time or what ever the latest catchphrase is floating around in manufacturing at the moment gets lost in translation

A production line, I do my job , finish then wait , until the next job arrives , I work well as an individual. ,,line speed and quality drops ,,( Quality drops because I have a bad day and slap things together ,,)which isn't picked up by the next individual , but picked up at the end of the line ..expensive ..

Meanwhile over in Toyodas factory , the workers actually NEED to work together its because of the up bringing , they need to form relationships with people and within that tight social world there are A LOT of rules .which should be OBEYED

So If there are two people waiting on an empty Jetty and you tell the young Japanese girl to use the loud hailer to tell everyone to get on the boat ,,She will do that

Even if its plainly obvious that there are only two people and they can hear you well enough ,,,,them is the rules that is the way its done and I will do it that way ... Even though I think it is stupid


Great designs come from free thinkers , sweden has its designs because of wood , and the shapes you can make from wood ...England ,,umm eerr the austin Maxi ,,,yes well ,,,we drink alot ...

Japan , Details ...no design form , japans culture is in the details .....

Stephen

BTW there are some Shocking managers here too !

[jrandom]

oh no little randoms to go forth and populate??

I decided that two was enough.

[slowpoke]

Have a look at this graph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:F...UD_and_NZD.png which shows a steady down-trend since 1970. That's 38 years. The recent high value against the $US makes it hard to comprehend the fact NZ is going down - but the reality of wages and standard of living in the US, Australia, and Europe shows it is true.

Uh uh, that graph mentions nothing of productivity which is what was predicated as driving the exchange rate. There is simply no relationship between the way the NZ$ can plummet 5c overnight against the greenback and any causal effect of productivity or lack of.

Yip, the burden rate. Remove that employee and it doesn't cost you $70 per hour.

Yup, and they also aren't able to contribute towards the many vehicles/products produced in that hour which would make you a shitload of cash.

Treat people as a liability and that's exactly what they'll be and vice versa.

[R6_kid:Me]

Could the poor people please stop whining.

no, they're being efficient workers... cant you tell!

[McJim]

I worked under this rule from 1988 to 2004 and never actually saw it invoked. Once it was threatened and the fella bucked up his ideas and became a really good worker.

There is a benefit to the employee too in that he/she can LEAVE the job without fear of facing a 'breach of contract' lawsuit. (As an employer if anyone had walked out on me I WOULD have sued the arse off of them if I could).

It works well and is not the bogeyman some people here make it out to be.

[SixPackBack]

and therein lies the problem
to coin a phrase, people rise to their level of incompetence

---- my observations are much the same as yours - so what turns a well-intentioned, hard-working employee into a truly DREADFUL manager? .... one can only suppose the process that transformed them from one to the other

---- in most companies, the assumption is that a good - say - mechanic will automatically make a good supervisor

WRONG WRONG WRONG - the skillset has similarities but it doesn't end there by a long way

unfortunately our system of rewards, our systems of career progression, are mostly based on this erroneous principal

- you have a magnificent mechanic - you 'reward' him by making him workshop manager ..... it may work out for a while but what will likely happen is that you will have sentenced your magnificent mechanic to a daily drudge of administrative and customer contact tasks he [or she] is ill-equipped for and loathes and the frustration of having to supervise and coach people with less ability than he [she] has to do the actual job s/he loves whilst all s/he REALLY longs to do is do the job him/herself

what the economy, the country and human happiness REALLY needs is to get RID of this 'promotion' thingy ...... let's strip the 'reward' money and status from what are, essentially ADMIN positions for which some specialised industry knowledge is needed .......

let's build a culture where we hire really great ADMIN people with primarily ADMIN and PEOPLE skills and average mechanical knowledge to do the [in this example] workshop manager positions and let's reward our exceptional mechanic with money and status, sure - a voice on the company council, sure - BUT for pity's sake let him/her go on doing the job they love .... let's build a structure where he can progress WITHOUT having to leave it

could be, they may want a change ... but how much better, more profitable, for EVERYONE if they don't have to change to progress.

ok
rant over

*waits for everyone to throw rotton tomatoes and tell me how silly i am ...*

A rant indeed!.............while the 'Peter's principal' [rising to the level of incompetence] is a real and measurable effect, promotion is needed within every industry. The analogy you present about a mechanic becoming a manager and performing badly is so generic that it has no real substance. Nothing is better in the practical trades than having an individual that is capable of providing mentoring, facilitating, customer service, feedback up the chain, solving technical issues, and rolling thier sleeves up when needed etc etc.
A Mechanic [in this analogy] is the very best person to become the workshop manager, the problems that you describe come from promotion without training, back-up or mentoring. The very worst person to facilitate a workshop is the person with very little mechanical knowledge-ask any mechanic!

Rising to the level of incompetence is a double edged sword. Our collective knowledge of this phenomenon can and does prevent suitable individuals progressing [when good employee's are hard to find]. I believe where we are currently going off the rails is due to a lack of correctly implemented HR practices when hiring, and also with training-to often training does not happen.

[jrandom]

'Peter's principal'

The best software development managers I've seen have been guys who (often reluctantly) moved into that role after many years as a coder.

The absolute worst ones are always those who come to the job with generic 'management' training and/or experience.

Domain-specific professional knowledge is vital for anything more complicated than banging bricks together.

[mstriumph]

A rant indeed!.............while the 'Peter's principal' [rising to the level of incompetence] is a real and measurable effect, promotion is needed within every industry. The analogy you present about a mechanic becoming a manager and performing badly is so generic that it has no real substance. Nothing is better in the practical trades than having an individual that is capable of providing mentoring, facilitating, customer service, feedback up the chain, solving technical issues, and rolling thier sleeves up when needed etc etc.
A Mechanic [in this analogy] is the very best person to become the workshop manager, the problems that you describe come from promotion without training, back-up or mentoring. The very worst person to facilitate a workshop is the person with very little mechanical knowledge-ask any mechanic!

Rising to the level of incompetence is a double edged sword. Our collective knowledge of this phenomenon can and does prevent suitable individuals progressing [when good employee's are hard to find]. I believe where we are currently going off the rails is due to a lack of correctly implemented HR practices when hiring, and also with training-to often training does not happen.

well done on recognising the reference ... unfortunately it ages both of us ........
and yes, of course you are right about my mechanic .. provided of course he WANTS to be an administrator (and i did cover that idea in my post) but you are straying off the point? my point is that our current 'rewardthink' has ended up with a hierarchical structure where (in most instances) people HAVE to get promoted to supervisory positions in order to 'progress' ... and this has the potential to be totally detrimental both to the organisation and to the individual?

oh - and i can't agree that all my mechanic would need would be training and mentoring .... there has to be THE DESIRE TO CHANGE FIELDS ... [and, just as with any other field, there has to be the raw material to work with or you will have turned an excellent mechanic into a hohum administrator - yet ANOTHER lose/lose .... no?]

we need to grow a mindset that bypasses this hierarchical nonsense?

[Winston001]

.....my point is that our current 'rewardthink' has ended up with a hierarchical structure where (in most instances) people HAVE to get promoted to supervisory positions in order to 'progress' ...

....we need to grow a mindset that bypasses this hierarchical nonsense?

Can you suggest anywhere in the world today, or historically, where people co-operated successfully without an hierarchy?

Even ants and bees which are highly evolved with shared communal objectives, have hierarchies.

What you are longing for MsT, has already been tried by the disciples of Marx and Engels. It is an absolutely laudable aim - everyone working together, cooperating, doing the best each is capable of. Everyone paid much the same, from floor sweeper to accountant. No bosses.

Sounds good to me too. I'd be happy to sweep the floor and you do the accounts.

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

I haven't read all the posts, or the "new legislation" But I know I have often wished there was a 3 month trial period for me - I have done alot of contract work as well as permanent full time and at times the job was misrepresented to me - or the environment was so not my scene - as you find out quite quickly really. In the past I have left these jobs and they just go in my CV as temp positions.

Also I have been on the other side of the fence and co-owned a business - trying to fire an incompetent employee is a bloody nitemare.

I just heard today of a friend's daughter who is pregnant with her third child - all different fathers, hardly ever worked, Just turning 22 next week. Not on the pill, wants natural, don't like rubbers well ffs one's a mistake, two's stupidity - three - get sterilised and not be paid for the third child by the state.

[Pascal]

Quoting from Kiwiblog, because it seems a lot of people are missing some of the basic facts of this thing.

1. A probation period is not automatic for new jobs in small businesses. It only occurs if the employer and employee agree to it. Try offering me a job with a probation period, and I’ll tell you where to stick it! Mind you as a business owner any of my clients can sack me at any time without any notice!
2. The 90 days is a maximum, and it can be less.
3. All employment rights such as good faith, non-discrimination, non-harrassment, holidays, leave, OSH are maintained during a probation period. It is only if you are sacked for non performance, that you can not take a personal grievance. If you are sacked because you are pregnant (for example), you can still take a grievance.
4. There can be only one trial period per employer. An employer can not have a trial period for an employee who has worked for them previously.
5. If you leave a benefit to take up a job terminated within the 90 day probation period, there is no stand down returning to the benefit.
6. While small businesses (less than 20 staff) make up 97% of enterprises, they only employ 31% of employees.
7. The law only applies to new jobs, and can not affect any existing employee in their current job.

[mstriumph]

.......What you are longing for MsT, has already been tried by the disciples of Marx and Engels.......

unfortunately their efforts have a tendency to end up like 'animal farm' [where all are equal, but some are more equal than others ..]

seriously - i'm not sure ANYTHING we've tried so far has any hope of working - in fact i'm not sure that there's not something in the human psyche that actually wants or NEEDS to subordinate itself to a system - irrespective of how detrimental that system may be to the individual concerned ..... *sigh*

[scracha]

This is quite simply a mechanism for employers to get over the hump of a short term project that they over committed to.

Nope, it's a mechanism for employers to be able to employ hard working individuals and grow the economy without worrying about the risk of taking on a lazy fucktard. In my little town I can rattle off a dozen employers who have been too scared to take on any new starts before this law.