Emergency braking

[howdamnhard]

Hey Icemaestro,contact blackbird,he sent me a really good article on a study of what was the best method of emergency braking.You should have chopped your throttle before making all 4 fingers avaliable for braking.The back brake helps bring the weight onto the front.Squeeze the front progressively as the weight comes onto it and it shouldn't lock up as the tyre squishes down increasing it's contact patch/grip.Note as weight comes onto front ,it come off the back making your back brakes less effective(it may skid but don't worry about it ) just focus on the front brake.
Find a nice quiet road and practice,start slowly and work up to it,practice until it becomes a reflex as in a emergency you often haven't got time to think about it.Anyway read the article and practice.
As Ixion pointed out previously emergency braking won't always save you there is always the option to swerve.I learnt this doing a lot of high speed travelling a long time ago , where your braking distances are huge.Often braking as hard as you can to bleed off speed/energy and then releasing brakes and steering around the obstacle has saved my skin.If I had only braked I would have collided.
Anyway take care and good luck.

[AlBundy]

& also my instructor told us how he watched a fella pull his glove off & shake it.. to get his 2 amputated fingers out of it.. after doing an emergency brake with only 2 fingers on the lever.. the other two got totally squished by the lever being pulled back hard in against the handlebar.. also, the brake cannot be pulled in completely, to bring you to a safe emergency stop, with fingers in the way

I call BS on that one...

But yes, it may very well limit your front lever travel if you have them set up that way, that you won't get full pull...

[The Stranger:Me]

Hey Icemaestro,contact blackbird,he sent me a really good article on a study of what was the best method of emergency braking.

I obviously can not say I am familiar with the article to which you refer, however, with any such study I strongly suggest you look at the test methodology and not just the result. There was one such study referred to on KB a while back where -
1) There was a full size mac in protective case mounted rear of the rear axle to monitor the sensors on the bikes (no mention as to how it was powered).
2) The bikes were fitted with outriggers so they could not be dropped.
3) Two thirds of the tests (by experienced riders) were rejected as non compliant with their methodology.

Come on - the mac with protective case rear of the rear axle had to add 20kg to the rear.
Out riggers? Not sure of your bikes, but mine don't have em.
Only 1 in 3? FFS, in an emergency how many tries do you get? Whoa back it up and try that one again please.

[The Stranger:Me]

if you're braking slowly while changing down (aka engine braking also) do you still blip the throttle to stop the bike doing a jerk as the clutch is released?

I never blip the throttle. I know a lot of people do, including many racers.
I have always found that I can control the release of the clutch just fine and/or simply apply a little throttle on release of the clutch to match engine speed, or just pop the clutch if the mood takes me.

On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

Personally, I don't see it as a big issue, if you can do it comfortably sure why not?

[howdamnhard]

[QUOTE=The Stranger;1866729]I obviously can not say I am familiar with the article to which you refer, however, with any such study I strongly suggest you look at the test methodology and not just the result. There was one such study referred to on KB a while back where -

Agreed,studies can be biased and not reflect real world conditions.I don't recall this study using outriggers etc,but it was so long ago since I read it I cannot remember for sure. For me it was what to do and in what order that counted.I then had an idea what to and how to practice.It helped greatly in that respect and with practice became instinctive and has saved my bacon on two occasions.

[AlBundy]

I never blip the throttle. I know a lot of people do, including many racers.
I have always found that I can control the release of the clutch just fine and/or simply apply a little throttle on release of the clutch to match engine speed, or just pop the clutch if the mood takes me.

On the XT which is a single with significant engine braking I usually just bang it down a gear or 2 and drop the clutch, the rear may lock or chatter, so what?

Personally, I don't see it as a big issue, if you can do it comfortably sure why not?

By blipping, it means you don't have to slip the clutch as much, or apply throttle to match engine speed...

As for banging down two gears and letting the rear lock/chatter... Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right...

[The Stranger:Me]

By blipping, it means you don't have to slip the clutch as much, or apply throttle to match engine speed...

No, but you have to blip, which is an additional action, releasing the clutch and/or applying throttle is no additional action, as these were going to be done anyway. Again, NOT arguing against blipping, but your argument is spurious.

As for banging down two gears and letting the rear lock/chatter... Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right...

I must admit, I enjoy quoting out of context to rark people up too but this one is a little too obvious. Please try again soon.

[AlBundy]

No, but you have to blip, which is an additional action, releasing the clutch and/or applying throttle is no additional action, as these were going to be done anyway. Again, NOT arguing against blipping, but your argument is spurious.
.

It may be an additional action but then one could say that slipping the clutch would involve a fair amount of concentration too.

There's also the theory that brakes are for slowing and some people frown upon using the engine/clutch for that purpose...

Argument? I thought it was a discussion...

[vifferman]

I don't cover the brakes (I've tried it, but somehow it makes me anxious and more likely to panic brake). I also (mostly) use index and middle finger, and both brakes, so I get ALL pistons working both ends of the bike (6 at the front, 3 at the back). DCBS FTW!

[awayatc]

Bikes are not very good at braking , that stability thing. We are much better at dodging. But once committed to an emergeny brake session it is hard to let go and swerve.

absolutely true....couple of days ago started to pass a line of cars, was committed, speed was rapidly getting up .....one car suddenly decided to indicate to the right and started to turn...., quickly braking slowed me down some but never enough, swerving to pass him on the left was going to work..BUt he must have seen me in the last second and swerved back to the left.... fistfull of trottle and a quick swerve to the right saved the day....

It is important to use all 4 fingers on the front brake.. a couple of reasons for this..

also, the brake cannot be pulled in completely, to bring you to a safe emergency stop, with fingers in the way

was used to rockhard frontbrakes, got my "new" Aprilia and needed to scrub of speed rapidly...Braked with 2 fingers as per habit....cought the other 2 between lever and handlebar, could not squeeze any harder because of fingers caught and froze up for a second so could not retrieve fingers....
New mastercylinder and braided lines gives me rockhard brake again, but 2 finger braking no more.....

[The Stranger:Me]

It may be an additional action but then one could say that slipping the clutch would involve a fair amount of concentration too.

There's also the theory that brakes are for slowing and some people frown upon using the engine/clutch for that purpose...

Argument? I thought it was a discussion...

Ok, so you are a racer wishing to reach the pinicle of racing perhaps blipping the throttle is of some use, indeed perhaps it is of great import and you are never going to be truely great until you have mastered this highly prized skill.
Now rewind to learning to ride. You are a noob, there are a hundred things you need to focus on at any one time. Where does blipping the throttle lie in the order of import?

Let me assure you, it lays well below the controlled use of your motorbikes controls, which is all I am advocating. If you are ham fisted with the clutch and it requires a large amount of your concentration, you have potentially much bigger problems. What about the throttle and the brakes?
Being ham fisted with those is far more likely to get you killed, so personally I would focus on that over learning to blip the throttle whilst braking.

Comments like " Awesome newb advice, but you are a MENTOR, so you must be right..." are not intended to be constructive and are argumentitive, however a little hint, there is more than one meaning of the word argument.

PS. Just noticed the abusive comments in the red rep, man lay off the bottle eh, we were only having a discussion, no need to go all psycho over it.

[Icemaestro]

Goodness...what have I started. Haha yeah I find that I get my two fingers stuck between the lever and the grip so guess that puts that out for me! todaay seems to have turned to crap so no practice today :-) thanks for all the advice.

[Sparrowhawk]

I too have read an article about braking recently, like howdamnhard. It was in Two Wheels magazine.

It suggested that an accidents don't 'happen', they 'evolve' out of a combination of situations, events, and decisions. The author said that if you see a potential accident start to evolve ahead of you, roll off the throttle, very gently squeeze the front brakes, and keep watching. If everything turns to custard up ahead , you're already in a braking 'attitude' (pads against the disk, front forks slightly compressed, front tyre flattening out increasing rubber on road), and your reaction time is decreased because you don't have to move your hand.

If things don't turn to custard, you can just get back on the throttle and keep riding

If you'd like a copy of the article, PM me & I can photocopy & snail-mail it to you. It's good reading

[The Stranger:Me]

Goodness...what have I started.

Great isn't it, and you didn't even have to try.
Now imagine how much shit you can cause if you put your mind to it.

[pritch]

I find this thread somewhat disturbing.

Having tried to read it I have no idea what some of you are on about. Given that this includes people with Me after their name that's a worry.

Being charitable it may be that people are interpreting the phrase "emergency braking" differently?

Ienatch and Pridmore in their respective texts both advise two fingers for the front brake. This facilitates down changes but gives more than enough leverage on most modern bikes. If you are in danger of squashing your fingers, best you sort your bloody bike out.

In a full on "emergency" stop you aren't worried about down changes until after the immediate threat has passed.

As Code says you lose 100% of your steering while the front wheel is locked.
That'd possibly be a good time to be looking for somewhere to go instead of straight into whatever has just frightened the shit out of you.

Ienatch says of riding in traffic, "We learned to cover the brake lever with our right middle and index fingers at all times reducing the reaction time when confronted with a surprise."

Code advises against using the rear brake in racing. "Everything but the front end is kept stable by the spinning rear wheel." He also says though, "a motorcycle will come to a full stop quicker with both brakes applied." Which latter quote most applies to an emergency stop.

There seems to be a fairly strong consensus among these three authors to the extent that I would be suspicious of anything considerably at variance with that.