Cornering - To brake or not to brake

[wysper]

I have been reading the threads on things like trail braking and it has made me think about cornering technique on the road - not the track.

I am a very conservative rider and therefore tend to err on the side of caution on such things as speed, lean angle etc.

So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill )

Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?

I am wondering that if I get my initial technique right then the confidence to go a bit faster and harder will come. Trust in my own skills and in the capabilities of the bike.

I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

[James Deuce]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?

Anyway.

As a well known wanker I try to stick with the "slow in, fast out" theory of road riding, especially If I have no sight line through the corner.

I set my entry speed, release the brakes and peel into the corner with tiny bit of power on and steadily increase the power from apex to exit. On the road your chosen apex needs to take into account keeping yourself out of the way of oncoming traffic and roadside furniture.

Most of the time though, I find that most roads can be navigated at a fair clip with little more than smooth throttle adjustments and lots of forward planning.

BTW, we call them "brakes", and the verb is "braking". "Breaks" and "breaking" when describing this process in writing is just tempting fate.

[CookMySock]

In MY OPINION, if you are a cautions rider and just like to hum along, then it is unlikely you will end up in a corner that is too quick for the bike to handle, unless you miss something really big, then you are screwed anyway. The bike will do a lot more than you think it will.

If I was in your position and I found myself just a little quick for comfort in a corner, I would NOT brake, but put my shoulder out and concentrate and countersteer through it.

As soon as you brake, the suspension geometry changes, and then you have to deal with the bike re-steering from that AS WELL, so why make it even harder.

The spinoff from this is, you will eventually increase your ability to corner, if not for general use, then for emergencies anyway. I recently went through the same decision making process. I chose to steer - not brake, because the bike had more ability up its sleeve than I did, so I trusted it and went with it. Its working for me.

All in my opinion. Haters ignored.

Steve

[discotex]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?

Helpful wankers though.

So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill )

Sounds good so far.

Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?

Braking to the apex on the roads doesn't leave much room for error in your entry speed.

I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

Stick with the habit you're in. It's the best approach for the road.

Learn to apex later as well.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/to...?TOPIC_ID=3555

[Ixion]

The answer is "it all depends". On the bike, on the rider, on the corner. I have several bikes , of quite different sorts. I find that the cornering technique that works well for one does not for another. Note here that by "works well" I mean that it feels comfortable, is safe and provides scope for emergency action should that be necessary. What I deem "working well" may not by any means be the *fastest* way through a corner.

I think the best advice is the oldest - if it feels right it probably is. If it feels edgy and not well controlled - don't do it that way.

But certainly, some bikes, best way is hard(ish) on the brakes until the apex, then hard on the throttle. Others, that would be unwise.

You need to find what works for you, your bike, your roads.

[wysper]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?



BTW, we call them "brakes", and the verb is "braking". "Breaks" and "breaking" when describing this process in writing is just tempting fate.

I agree - Good wankers

And thanks for pointing out the breaks/brakes thing. I like to think that usually I would catch that sort of thing before I hit reply or submit.

In MY OPINION, if you are a cautions rider and just like to hum along, then it is unlikely you will end up in a corner that is too quick for the bike to handle

Yeah. I am hoping that is right too.

Note here that by "works well" I mean that it feels comfortable, is safe and provides scope for emergency action should that be necessary. What I deem "working well" may not by any means be the *fastest* way through a corner.

I think the best advice is the oldest - if it feels right it probably is. If it feels edgy and not well controlled - don't do it that way.

Now that sounds like good advice too.
I also imagine that too improve you sometimes have to push you self a bit out of your comfort zone. The trick is knowing the time you can do that safely.

Thankfully I have had offers of help from a couple of mentors. I think it is long overdue time for me to take some help.

Thanks for the answers so far.

[svr]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

[MSTRS:Me]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

1....and on near every public road. Yes, even on SH1. These corners that tighten up are every rider's nightmare, unless you ride only one road all the time and it becomes as familiar as it would on a track.
2. Too much front and you'll stand the bike up/run wide.
3. Being able to stop in half the visible distance is (usually) more than enough safety margin. Obviously, you need to 'experiment' to find what that distance is for you and your bike.
4. Trailing brakes is a good way to require constant pad replacement.
5. Yep. Better to have weight on your rear tyre than your front. This is why you bike stands up under front braking...more weight on the front tyre means it resists leaning/turning.
6. True. But 4 stroke engines have a lovely little thing called torque. The greater that amount of torque, the more engine braking you have available. A V-twin is a great bike to ride the engine on, and I'd hazard a guess that once you get your skills up, there would be few roads that you would have to use brakes at all. Barring emergencies, of course.
To paraphrase an old saying..."Use the gears, Luke"

[325rocket]

good thread.

From time to time i brake (front) into corners with the bike leaning over rite to the apex then hit the gas on the way out. is this bad practice? i feel comfortable / smooth doing it and have not had any problems. Is it a matter of time until i wash the front out? im only on a 250 so theres not a whole lot of power there to get me in trouble.

cheers

[wysper]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Funnily enough, when I started reading about trail braking, I had assumed it always meant the rear brake. Seemed a slightly dodgy idea to be riding the front brake into a corner.

I am on a V-Twin. So using the engine to control speed is awesome. In general I probably ride the engine and gears harder than the brakes.

[CookMySock]

I am on a V-Twin. So using the engine to control speed is awesome. In general I probably ride the engine and gears harder than the brakes.

Ditto, works good alrighty, but if you throttle off mid-corner it will push a lot of weight on the front wheel, making life harder for it and consequently, you.

Alternatively, if you slide yer butt well back on the seat, and as soon as you are tipped in and established in the corner, crack the throttle on slightly so you have no engine braking. My bike is much much happier in the corner if I do this.

I have had a lot of fun learning about cornering bikes, and I am much safer thanks to the guidance I have received on KB. Kudos.

Steve

[R6_kid:Me]

Deliberatly trail braking into a corner means using up more of your available grip as you enter, and therefore isn't a smart move on the road, and has infact got me into trouble in the past (the rustle in Russell).

However, understanding and getting used to how your bike reacts whilst braking on a curve/corner is a handy bit of knowledge to hold.

Being able to stop on a curve is a requirement for the BHS test, however it is only dont at 20kmh.

If you are talking about setting you're entry speed for a corner then on the road it is best to have this done before you enter the corner as if you trail brake into a corner you don't know you could find yourself running out of lean angle/grip/stopping distance really fast - best to just ride for the vanishing point, and be comfortable using the brakes to alter your speed if the need arises.

Remember that generally using the front brakes - the bike will tend to 'stand up' and run wide, and using the rear it will generally tighten your line/make the bike lean in more.

[Devil]

However, understanding and getting used to how your bike reacts whilst braking on a curve/corner is a handy bit of knowledge to hold.

..................

Remember that generally using the front brakes - the bike will tend to 'stand up' and run wide, and using the rear it will generally tighten your line/make the bike lean in more.

Yes, it is a handy thing to know.
Plus as R6_kid just alluded to, the front brake wont always make a bike stand up. This is dependent on the combination of chassis, suspension, tyres and general setup. None of the bikes i've owned stand up under brakes and I like it like that. They've all been very predictable. Different tyres can make an instant difference to this.

I have no issue with braking in corners, but it's only done where necessary. Learn your bike, learn how it behaves.

[FROSTY:Me]

Heres the problem dude-you are asking a generic question sorta requiring a generic answer.
Ixion covered that off really well.
For me --Ok Ive gone into a ROAD corner a bit hot on my gjhj 7/11
I will brake as hard as I can for as long as I can right up to THAT point.
Heres the nub of the matter--deciding where THAT point is.
its different for every corner.
Then Im committed to getting back on the gas enough to get a load on the chasis and tyres so they can do their best job of getting me round the corner.
I disagree with srv only in that if Ive ferked it up trail braking MIGHT be something I'll use.
Its kinkda like being ARNIE with a bazuka,a machine gun, a couple of knives, a pistol and god only knows what other weapons.
Ive got the weapons --doesn't mean I use em--but its good to have em when I really need em

[hospitalfood]

the closest i come to crashing is when i brake hard into corners and stand the bike up.
sometimes i am just to fast into the corner for my ability and have to brake, it stands up, my line goes to shit, and i scare myself.
for me slightly to fast is not so bad, i stay calm, lean or counter steer a bit more and very gently apply power. this works for me.
i must say im a very average rider with no professional knowledge and have a bike with more ability than myself.