Progression rather than leap question.

[Hitcher]

the progressives generally become better riders than the leapers

Spare a penny for an ex-leaper?

[The Stranger:Me]

and i didn't want to outright say that the progressives generally become better riders than the leapers

but now i've said it - awaiting KB outrage

Outrage?
Why on earth would there be outrage at that. I am certain you can substantiate it right? So fire away, lets have the proof.

[motorbyclist]

note this is just a generalisation - and by better rider i mean faster in the twisties with less fuckups. while katman thinks this means worse rider, i also notice the attitude of progressives is generally safer than leapers.

my theory is, attitude aside, that the riders who move to a 400 or stay on a 250 learn how to properly ride their machine to it's limit without exceeding their own limits. they learn what not to do in a relatively forgiving environment, lighter bikes are easier to save and they can learn how to save, less torque means less snap etc. I consider the move to a sports 600 a bit of a leap if the rider isn't full using their 250, due to weight and power.
the leapers simply miss out on this experience and have to learn on a more difficult machine.

firstly, it might just be the attitude of the leapers vs progressives, but watching the uni club members progress/leap you can tell the progressives are learning more about riding the machine to it's ability, whereas the leapers are learning the hard way about wheelies and are making up for cornering ineptitude with straight line speed.

secondly, the crash rate reflects this, although i might think the 250 crash rate might be able to predict a leaper; crashers tend to leap for some reason. again attitude.

one progressive i know spent a fair while on his vtr250 with only one near accident (in the ditch and back out again upright) then got a gsr600 or something like that - a naked inline 600 - and is yet to bin the bike

A leaper i know went from gsx250 to gsxr750 before even getting his full, partly because the 250 was so severely damaged from a bin. poor bike is badly scratched, AND is suffering from the constant snap-on power wheelies

back before i realised how much of an idiot i can be on an nc30, i went on a big coro loop dominated by 600s through to litre bikes, both twins and inline sports. Suffice to say i was only passed by two guys; the organiser on a fireblade and rossi on an r1 (came out of nowhere, one wheel into and out of corners while passing on a blind left hander).
at one of the stops a lot of the guys were musing as to how a 20 year old 400 had torn past them and apart from imploring me to hit the track, all were saying a lot of it would come down to me knowing how to properly thrash my bike to squeeze every last bit of performance out of it, while they were complacent and did have a lot more performance to draw from their bikes.
also, while one rider of a shiny new gsxr was pulling his bike out of the ocean, I didn't have a single 'oh shit i've overcooked this' moment the whole ride

on another trip me and my mate, both on NC30s, were waiting several minutes for a 600 rider to catch up - "corners are too bloody tight" he says, we say "your bike is too bloody big". i reckon if he rode that thing properly he should've been much faster.

now i know most of this is anecdotal and pretty subjective, but i still stand by it

it's the same sort of reasoning that says dirt riders make better road riders and road riders more aware drivers



and last but not least - the speed limit is 100kph. do we really need bikes designed to do 200kph sweepers? myself i prefer to find the twisty roads like the coromandel, all sub 100, and thus prefer to take a light handling bike where a misjudged twist of the throttle won't find you facing the way you came

[motorbyclist]

Outrage?
Why on earth would there be outrage at that. I am certain you can substantiate it right? So fire away, lets have the proof.

this is kb, we don't need proof

[Manxman]

No.

Went from a 250 Bandit, to a YZF750.

Too much too soon, and way, way, way too fricken quick for a newly qualified rider.

Others may/will have different experiences. This is mine.

I now have an R6, which despite being fast, is more user friendly, rideable, etc at lower speeds and less 'if you even so much as look at my throttle, I'll be doing 100 before ya know it'.

[Gremlin]

Went from a zzr250 to a zx7r, after 7 months, and 9000km. As others have said, the biggest factor is the brain linked to the right wrist.

Several mates were certain I would stack it in spectacular fashion in short order, but I never did (of course, they were happy I didn't).

I think it was the right move for me, and the zx7r certainly taught me riding skills a new 600 never would have (they are just too easy to ride). Granted, I had already learnt what I could on the zzr, scraping it here there and everywhere, and leading zxr's through corners in the wet

Seen plenty do a similar leap to mine, and get it wrong... so it depends from case to case. Also seen people do bigger leaps, and be fine.

[White trash]

I went straight from an RGV250 to the very first fuel injected GSXR750 in the country in 1998.

Lasted six wild months and 18000kms before it ejected me in a hi-side at 220kays just south of Tokoroa, through a farmers fence, the wire cutting my brand new Jamie Whitam replica Bell pretty much in half.

Three weeks in hospital, operations and a shit load of physio. Off work for twelve months.

Worth it? Doubt it.

[Katman]

while katman thinks this means worse rider

I don't think you really know what I mean.

I don't recall ever saying faster equals worse rider.

[The Stranger:Me]

this is kb, we don't need proof

So to summarise once again. You're full of shit.

[motorbyclist]

I don't think you really know what I mean.

I don't recall ever saying faster equals worse rider.

sorry of course you didn't - what i meant to convey is i'm talking about 'better' in a riding as fast as possible without crashing sort of sense, as opposed to the safety or roadcraft sort of sense

So to summarise once again. You're full of shit.

or, i knew when i posted it that KBers with different experience, and/or those who feel offended by my implication, wouldn't even bother to address the apparent flaws in my reasoning with their own experiences and thoughts on the matter

so here's where you call me a dickhead, or explain why a leap is better than a progression and/or doesn't produce worse riders

[rocketman1]

Yeah I went straight into a 1200 Bandit, yeah there were a few scary moments to start with, like I did not really get together with counter steering in the first couple of hundred kms, but soon got back into the groove.
As I am rider of mature age, and possibly slower reflexes than when I was young I was very cautious to do the right thing, and not try to be a boy racer.

Had I been a young guy and full of testostorene ( whatever) i guess to go straight back into a 1000/1200 would have been a silly thing to do.
I have been back into big bikes for about four years now and I often have to check myself & say slow down buddy, I want to be riding again next week.
I maybe should have spent some time on smaller bikes again <400cc but I figured that as long as I am careful and cautious I should be OK.
It is too some extent it is rewarding to ride a new bike that handles well and stops very well.
I was going to buy a Busa but came to my senses, I assessed that where can i do the speeds these bikes are capable of, anyway 250+km/hr on any bike is fast who cares about the last 50Km/hr. FAST is FAST, leave all that stuff on the race track.
My best advise is spend some time on a race track on any size bike you like,
1000/1200's, Busas and all you will find that unless you are are a very good rider you will be blown to weeds by heaps of guys on 400-600 / 650 rice rockets.
In other words don't try to prove yourself as fast on the road, no matter what you ride, there are a 1000+ track riders out there that will leave you in there smoke and dust, and put you in your place.
Ride your own pace and take your time, and you should be fine.
...that rhymes aye... I should be a poet

[LBD]

Hi Guys

all good and healthy so far, I appreciate the time and honest responses.

LBD

[hospitalfood]

dont piss about, get a big engine.
i progressed over several years, 250's 400 750's then a seven year break then 1200's.
i learnt bugger all about riding ( i have to admit my crashing skills improved ) until i started riding with others who have skill, reading bits and pieces, and discussing riding with good riders.

i think it is about attitude, some people will crash regardless, others wont.
if you get a big one learn how hard it is to stop before you try to learn how to throw it round corners, and they will corner.

[The Stranger:Me]

so here's where you call me a dickhead, or explain why a leap is better than a progression and/or doesn't produce worse riders

Well, if you insist.
DICKHEAD!

But no thanks, unlike yourself I see little value in making unsubstantiated claims.

[The Stranger:Me]

note this is just a generalisation - and by better rider i mean faster in the twisties with less fuckups.

How did you account for the differences in the bikes when comparing the riders?
Does the fact that a rider is on a bike more suited to the purpose (twisties) make him a better rider. I have managed to give more than a few people on thous a bit of a fright on my XT660 - all 47HP of it. Does that make me a better rider?
Fuck off it simply means I am on a bike more suited to the particular environment.