Nurse offering a prayer = suspension

[Indiana_Jones]

Don't try to strawman me. I'm simply saying that professionals, particularly healthcare professionals, should be aware of the social context they're working in, and not make offensive offers to their patients.

The social context where people need to be patted on the head and told their special while having their nipples rubbed by a monkey and a turtle licking their special place.

-Indy

[jrandom]

However, every Christian is commanded to do so.

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee..."

Words of advice that many 'Christians' would do well to follow.

if she had not asked, just done it, would that also have been unprofessional (not a rhetorical question)

In the presence of the patient? Yes. In private? Of course not.

Likewise, if I , for example, were to pray for Mr Random, who knows not whereof ?

Were you to insist upon prayer regarding me in my presence, I would ask you to desist.

If you wish to bring me to mind during your private rituals, though, that's as much your own business as regular masturbatory fantasies about me are the business of females (and perhaps some males) who frequent this forum.

[jrandom]

The social context where people need to be patted on the head and told their special while having their nipples rubbed by a monkey and a turtle licking their special place.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

If you rocked up and tried to pray for me, I'd tell you to shut up and fuck off.

And if you were my healthcare professional, I'd want your boss to give you a severe telling off for doing so.

Many, many people feel the same way on that subject. The fact that prayer and white supremacist notions don't offend you personally (yes, it's quite possible to read between a few lines here and there...) is immaterial.

[Indiana_Jones]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

If you rocked up and tried to pray for me, I'd tell you to shut up and fuck off.

And if you were my healthcare professional, I'd want your boss to give you a severe telling off for doing so.

Many, many people feel the same way on that subject. The fact that prayer and white supremacist notions don't offend you personally (yes, it's quite possible to read between a few lines here and there...) is immaterial.

If a raghead wanted to pray to Allah or whoever on my behalf I'll say thanks but no thanks, if he did it again after saying no, then I would take it up.

All I see is that she offered a prayer, offered, like if I were to offer someone a ride or a glass of wine. Offer declined, she sodded off.

-Indy

[jrandom]

If a raghead wanted to pray to Allah or whoever on my behalf I'll say thanks but no thanks, if he did it again after saying no, then I would take it up.

All I see is that she offered a prayer, offered, like if I were to offer someone a ride or a glass of wine. Offer declined, she sodded off.

Like I said. You're not particularly personally sensitive to the issue. That's great. Also, you're using examples in the context of private individuals communicating with each other, which is not what this thread is discussing.

If you were working as a healthcare professional, part of your job would be to understand that many of your patients would be personally sensitive to that issue, and that offering to pray for someone could lead to figurative and literal black eyes.

The arrogant assumption that that common sensitivity is invalid, nonexistent or simply ignorable is what the nurse was hauled over the coals for, and rightly so.

[Disco Dan]

Likewise, if I , for example, were to pray for Mr Random, who knows not whereof ?

Well perhaps some could even take this a step further by saying even a prayer said for a patient without their knowledge is deemed unprofessional.

Let us for a (very brief) moment say that prayer does effect the person in question - what right does the 'prayee' have to effect change on another person?

Very much like a witch putting a spell on another person without their permission!

[Ixion]

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee..."

Words of advice that many 'Christians' would do well to follow.

And many of course, do indeed follow that command.

[jrandom]

And many of course, do indeed follow that command.

I would suggest that this nurse was, in a sense, failing to do so.

[Indiana_Jones]

Like I said. You're not particularly personally sensitive to the issue. That's great. Also, you're using examples in the context of private individuals communicating with each other, which is not what this thread is discussing.

If you were working as a healthcare professional, part of your job would be to understand that many of your patients would be personally sensitive to that issue, and that offering to pray for someone could lead to figurative and literal black eyes.

The arrogant assumption that that common sensitivity is invalid, nonexistent or simply ignorable is what the nurse was hauled over the coals for, and rightly so.

Well it was meant to be the same situation, but ok.

Soon it'll be illgeal to mention faith in any context and will be charged with it. But they can't do that right, oh wait...

If I goto Europe and say "those Jews didn't get gassed" I'll go to jail.

The Clash said it best,

"You have the right to free speech as long as youre not dumb enough to actually try it"

-Indy

[jrandom]

If I goto Europe and say "those Jews didn't get gassed" I'll go to jail... "You have the right to free speech as long as youre not dumb enough to actually try it"

You're presumably familiar with the "shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theatre" example of invalid 'free' speech.

It shows that 'free' speech should not imply complete freedom to state whatever one wishes. The potential for harm needs to be acknowledged.

And, of course, one can argue back and forth all day over whether a particular statement causes enough harm, and immediate enough harm, to be put in the basket with shouting 'fire!' in a crowded theatre.

Holocaust denial is on the edge of that debate, and rightly so. I note with interest your sympathy with the idea that such denial should be speakable and publishable without restraint; did you post that as an intentional corollary to my implication a few posts ago about your not-so-secret neo-Nazi sympathies, or was it just a fortuitously relevant slip?

[Badjelly]

Not quite. If I understand correctly, the nurse was offering to pray with the patient, not just offering to pray 'for' her at a later stage in private.

The Daily Mail article is unclear on the subject. The Telegraph article suggests "for" rather than "with". Here is the most relevant quote (which is from the Telegraph article though it mentions the Daily Mail):

Great grandmother Mrs Phippen told The Daily Mail: "It didn't worry me, it just struck me as a strange thing for a nurse to do. She finished dressing my legs and before she left the last thing she asked was would you like me to say a prayer for you? I said "no thank you" and then she went.

However one suspects the story may have changed a little in the telling and retelling.

[jrandom]

However one suspects the story may have changed a little in the telling and retelling.

Mmyes.

That last item does give me the impression of an offer to pray there and then.

(By the way, a pre-emptive mea culpa for Godwin's Law-ing this thread. I just realised what I've done.)

[Indiana_Jones]

Holocaust denial is on the edge of that debate, and rightly so. I note with interest your sympathy with the idea that such denial should be speakable and publishable without restraint; did you post that as an intentional corollary to my implication a few posts ago about your not-so-secret neo-Nazi sympathies, or was it just a fortuitously relevant slip?

I don't like goose-stepping sasuage suckers.

But if I wanted to say the sky is pink and I live with Batman, why can't I.

The same if someone wanted to say "I don't think that many Jews died..." even to question it is not allowed

-Indy

[jrandom]

The same if someone wanted to say "I don't think that many Jews died..." even to question it is not allowed

To question it is allowed. To assert that it did not happen, in the face of the overwhelming weight of evidence, is what is not allowed in certain countries that were closely touched by those events.

[Ixion]

Well perhaps some could even take this a step further by saying even a prayer said for a patient without their knowledge is deemed unprofessional.

Let us for a (very brief) moment say that prayer does effect the person in question - what right does the 'prayee' have to effect change on another person?

Very much like a witch putting a spell on another person without their permission!

Well, of course, the dude who actually effects the change has the right to do whatever He wants. The actual prayer of a Christian never does anything - it is what He does in response to the prayer . "Thy will be done".

The analogy of the Wiccan spell is interesting. But I think there is a distinct difference. A spell actually effects some change, by its own power (or, the power channelled by the caster) . For instance, a healing spell , something like "Let Mrs Smith be cured of her cancer" (obviously, it would take a very powerful witch to cast such a spell). Whereas no Christian would pray "Please cure Mrs Smith's cancer" . And if they did, it would also certainly have no effect - not also the difference , one is a command, one a request.

It can be argued that the only thing a Christian can effectually pray for is God's Grace, for themselves or others. Of course, much may follow from that.

But, since most Christians follow the precept endorsed by Mr Random, you never know if someone is praying for you. Or not.