Target fixation: Can it be avoided?

[cowboyz]

In my opinion, track riding teaches you how to ride on the track. Thats it. There are so many differences to road riding including levels of grip, distractions, camber on corners, room to run out a corner.

If you took at corner the same way on a country road as you do on the track then most likely will result in a mess.

Dont get me wrong, track riding is fun but I dont think it is a training ground for how to ride on the road.

[sinfull]

From my understanding of target fixation, it is like what was said above. If your going into a corner too hot and a tree catches your eye or you have some other reason to panic / upset your concentration and something then catches your eye, then you suddenly fixate on it. This is not something you want to do but you do anyway. .

Yeah simply put , coming in too hot, OMG if i go off i'm gonna hit that bank thereeeeeeeeee.............., if ya fast enough in correcting ya mindset and think/look, i'm going round the corner, trust ya tyres to handle it, more often than not ya come out with nothing more than a raised heart rate !

I didn't explain well. What I really do is keep my eyes focused as much as possible at the end of my visible area, and register everything that "comes". Periferal vision helps me locate those things and when are at a good distance I focus my eyes on them for a split second then back ahead. If I identify it as danger then I change course to avoid contact.

Maybe periferal vision is what I was looking for with my original post. Keep your eyes focused when you want but be able to ride usin that periferal vision.

Ok sorry i did misinterperate ya first post ! But using perifial or not using it, is dif than fixation !
Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !
Bloody good rider, ya see her slice past me on the str8 up to higgins and wanted to be up dallas's ass exiting that corner on the next lap to do the same to him !
Do have to dissagree with ya Lance but It is about personal beliefs lol what is learnt on the track can be taken back to the road i think, so long as ya aint riding at speed on the road !

[samgab]

I reckon it's like people who speak a second language.
They might be fluent in that second language, but in a high stress situation they will often revert back to their first language.
Same with target fixation, I believe.
One could try to train to NOT target fixate in day-to-day situations, but in an emergency situation, I think, people would revert back to the basic, natural reaction; which is to target fixate.

I may not be correct in this, but I'm not willing to test the theory in a real emergency situation

[BOGAR]

Your right cowboyz about the track and road being different. It was just that I found the track a great place to practice my road rinding skills in a safe location. But that was why I have done them and will do more. I am not trying to race on the road but just to understand my bike better without some of the distractions that can happen. It allowed me to get comfortable with the track and then the bike which has made a huge improvement in the way I ride on the road (I can take the same corner at the same speed but feel much more comfortable in doing so and feel I can devote more of my concentration at where I am going not what I am doing.
Plus I get to as fast as I can down the long straights. Track riding is certainly a lot of fun. But i'm taking this off topic so sorry.

[FJRider]

Do you beleve with some training you could avoid target fixation and be able to steer your bike wherever you like?

This would require some thinking on the part of the rider...

The degree of concentration required may be beyond the ability of some...

[phoenixgtr]

Have you read Keith Code's "A twist of the wrist"?

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

EDIT: You only have so much attention. As you become a better rider less of that attention needs to be spent on the operation of your bike and more can be spent on the hazards and the road

[mujambee]

Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !

Now for the same situation on an open road. Yo go into a left turn, and you are able to ride it, but a car comes in front of you. Your eyes lock on the car and, bang!, you end up in its windshield.

My point is: Could you train to ride in your lane, using periferal vision, while your eyes focus on that car? Or is it easier to try to learn not to look at it?

It's always advisable to have an eye on cars, but then again you can use your periferal vision on the car an focus on your lane.

I reckon it's like people who speak a second language.
They might be fluent in that second language, but in a high stress situation they will often revert back to their first language.

Not so. If you spend some time using your second language it replaces your mother tonge.
And this I know for sure, sometimes I even dream in english.

Have you read Keith Code's "A twist of the wrist"?

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

I'd really like to read that book, but it's impossible to find here in Spain. I'll have to try next time I go to UK.

[mujambee]

He explains how to use your peripheral vision to identify objects and markers while focusing your vision where you want to go. i.e. focusing your vision where you're going all the time, but being able to move the focus of your attention from one thing to another instantaneously. There's even an excercise in there to practice the technique.

Anyhow, there still remains the problem that your eyes will try to lock on whatever atracts your attention.

EDIT: You only have so much attention. As you become a better rider less of that attention needs to be spent on the operation of your bike and more can be spent on the hazards and the road

Good point there; all of this is only relevant if you have experience enough so you don't need to spare any conscious thinking on the handling of the bike.

[davebullet]

Peripheral vision is something you have to re-learn how to do after driving only a car like I did for many years. After all, your brain says to ignore peripheral vision, when all you see is roof pillars and a big bonnet.

[sinfull]

Now for the same situation on an open road. Yo go into a left turn, and you are able to ride it, but a car comes in front of you. Your eyes lock on the car and, bang!, you end up in its windshield.

My point is: Could you train to ride in your lane, using periferal vision, while your eyes focus on that car? Or is it easier to try to learn not to look at it?

It's always advisable to have an eye on cars, but then again you can use your periferal vision on the car an focus on your lane.

From personal experience i'd say shoot the gap and look where yr going, never tried focusing on the object while trying to navigate using perifial (sp) But being able to glare at the driver who cut ya off would be a good trick aye lol
Have seen an oncoming drivers gob open in shock in the perifial before though ! Was past him before he had a chance to think let alone react (one of them moments which helped make up my mind to take it to the track)

[cowboyz]

Yeah simply put , coming in too hot, OMG if i go off i'm gonna hit that bank thereeeeeeeeee.............., if ya fast enough in correcting ya mindset and think/look, i'm going round the corner, trust ya tyres to handle it, more often than not ya come out with nothing more than a raised heart rate !

I would guesstimate that most solo accidents happen from riders running out of road or hitting something rather than their tyres letting go. Alot simply due to target fixation, a few due to not using perificial (sp?) vision and not being aware of their surroundings.
I ride "reverse" where I ignore all hazzards and look for a safe line. If I cant find one I slow down until I can. The trade off with this style is that if anything really bizzare shows up I am likely to miss it (ie, cow standing in middle of road) but upside is it is really relaxing and I can ride for alot of ks without getting tired. So far it has worked for me. Nothing is 100% but noting every hazzard just sends my mind into overdrive about all the bad shit that could happen.
Ok sorry i did misinterperate ya first post ! But using perifial or not using it, is dif than fixation !
Sorry Sandra for posting this up but it is a classic case of fixation ! She is more than capable of handling that speed round there, but ya can see the point where sh thought "Oh No, i'm gonna run off here and go there" !
Who is the Sandra riding the blade? Looks good and mint video! It does look to me like she felt less grip on the left hand side of her tyre as she tupped in and bailed on it to avoid a lowside. (manfield can be cruel with spending so much time on the right hand side of the bike and so little on the left)
It doesnt look to me like a target fixation issue, more of a bail out issue. She may have made the hairpin but may not have too.
Bloody good rider, ya see her slice past me on the str8 up to higgins and wanted to be up dallas's ass exiting that corner on the next lap to do the same to him !
Do have to dissagree with ya Lance but It is about personal beliefs lol what is learnt on the track can be taken back to the road i think, so long as ya aint riding at speed on the road !

My point was that with all the obsticles taken away at the track it is a "fake" environment to fool one into thinking that their bike can do things it cant on the road. Main point in case is the ammount of room that is available to run out on the track that simply isnt there on the road and the heat in the tyres and available grip that is not present on the road. There are some roads that is it possible to get away with it, but over time it will cause grief.

[sinfull]

My point was that with all the obsticles taken away at the track it is a "fake" environment to fool one into thinking that their bike can do things it cant on the road. Main point in case is the ammount of room that is available to run out on the track that simply isnt there on the road and the heat in the tyres and available grip that is not present on the road. There are some roads that is it possible to get away with it, but over time it will cause grief.

Don't think Sandra is on KB but said sorry just in case ! Her man is a camera man and has the micky gear !
Surely you can't say that wasn't a classic case of fixation, sure she had lowsided in that corner on another trackday, that may have created some doubt, but still looks to me like it was a case of fixation !
Ok so ya have run offs at the track (in most cases) but your also doing up to 3- times the speed of road ! Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !
I've been doing track for 12 months now, last 5 of which i've not ridden on the road at all (personal choice). The knowledge i've gained from the track work would be easy to transfer to road at a third the speed ! Because it is a third the speed !
1) My braking, i KNOW i can pull the bike up from 240kph in 150m, get off the pics and drop the bike near on its side eccelerating and have it on its other side again in a distance of perhaps 8 m !
2) my tyres, i KNOW i can scrape my pegs with a metzeler racetec give it full twist and it will hang on (a conti sport will let go) add some road chip to that and the sport attack will more n likely hang on !
3) I KNOW if i lose the back wheel under power in a corner, if i release the gas completely the chances are i will highside rather than lowside, if i back off a litle i should regain control !
4) my reflexes in general have improved ! My awareness of whats going on around me has improved ! My knowledge of suspension set up has grown immencely,
Now you tell me i cant take that to the road and not be an improved rider ! (if i were to obey the speed limits)

[MSTRS:Me]

. Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !

I'm not so sure about that. Tyres grip better when 'hot' which is why road sport tyres shred on the track...their grip exceeds their construction...they just don't get so hot on the road (usually )
Also, with chip seal, unless it's new, the individual stones are polished smooth by all traffic, are often covered in tar bleed or diesel/oil/other shit. When new, the chip is sharp and will dig into the tyre, giving great grip and shudderingly huge wear.
The actual points of contact between tyre and surface is probably greater on the asphalt-type track finish.

[sinfull]

I'm not so sure about that. Tyres grip better when 'hot' which is why road sport tyres shred on the track...their grip exceeds their construction...they just don't get so hot on the road (usually )
Also, with chip seal, unless it's new, the individual stones are polished smooth by all traffic, are often covered in tar bleed or diesel/oil/other shit. When new, the chip is sharp and will dig into the tyre, giving great grip and shudderingly huge wear.
The actual points of contact between tyre and surface is probably greater on the asphalt-type track finish.

You may be correct ! But the only slides i've ever had on road tyres, on the road, have always been on smooth surface bitchemyn never had an issue with seal, apart from like you say tar bleeding through but of course you ride to the conditions aye

[cowboyz]

Should probably take this to another thread but since we are here..

Don't think Sandra is on KB but said sorry just in case ! Her man is a camera man and has the micky gear !

awesome stuff with some fantastic editing.

Surely you can't say that wasn't a classic case of fixation, sure she had lowsided in that corner on another trackday, that may have created some doubt, but still looks to me like it was a case of fixation !
I watched it a few times and I say it was a bail. Added info that she had already lowsided previously in the same move would suggest even stronger that it was a bail rather than target fixation.

Ok so ya have run offs at the track (in most cases) but your also doing up to 3- times the speed of road ! Be interested to see an experiment with heat in tyres on road compared to track and grip ??? Hello ! Lets say a third the speed of track, unless your using nylon tyres or ya hit an oil spill the grip would be twice that of the track due to the seal !
I would love to see a study on it. Fair bit of guesswork going into my theory but racetracks and roads are not prepared the same. There is a reason for not using chipseal on racetracks. They are not roads.
I've been doing track for 12 months now, last 5 of which i've not ridden on the road at all (personal choice). The knowledge i've gained from the track work would be easy to transfer to road at a third the speed ! Because it is a third the speed !
Entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the track compared to entering a hairpin at 60k/hr on the road does not equaite to a third of the speed. The difference comes into camber, availiable grip, heat of the tyres, runout room....
1) My braking, i KNOW i can pull the bike up from 240kph in 150m, get off the pics and drop the bike near on its side eccelerating and have it on its other side again in a distance of perhaps 8 m !
Agreed, however doing it on the track you know exactly where the corner is and how much space you have got. On the road, past that blind hairpin there may not be the same runoff, in fact, it is most likely that there is not the same runoff.
2) my tyres, i KNOW i can scrape my pegs with a metzeler racetec give it full twist and it will hang on (a conti sport will let go) add some road chip to that and the sport attack will more n likely hang on !
Again, it comes down to camber and the availiable grip levels. Are you saying that throwing your bike on its side and giving it a handful and it will never let go because you have done it on the track?
3) I KNOW if i lose the back wheel under power in a corner, if i release the gas completely the chances are i will highside rather than lowside, if i back off a litle i should regain control !
2 seconds ago you were claiming that you can lie the bike on its side and give it a handful and it wont let go, now you are losing the backend.....
4) my reflexes in general have improved ! My awareness of whats going on around me has improved ! My knowledge of suspension set up has grown immencely,
Now you tell me i cant take that to the road and not be an improved rider ! (if i were to obey the speed limits)

There are advantages about learning about how brakes and suspension and throttle and things work which will improve riding. The point remains that track riding will teach you how to ride on a track. Road riding will teach you how to ride on the road. There is the old argument is a "better" rider "better" because s/he is faster, or better because they dont crash.