Calling all suspension gurus

[pete.ktm]

Look Rob's probably going to post and prove me wrong but that way I see it static sag is only and indication that your spring is right or wrong.

yeah thats what half the internet say, the other half say the static sag is important on ktm's.

a couple of examples...

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/179/24...Bike-Test.aspx

At just over 200 lbs, I'm heavier than these designed spring rates, but they still work extremely well even at race speed. For the shock, I am running the static sag at the recommended 35mm and not worrying about the race sag, I did try adding an extra turn of preload but it didn't improve anything.

my bikes manual

DETERMINING THE STATIC SAG OF THE SHOCK ABSORBER
The static sag should be as close as possible to 35 mm. Deviations of more than 2 mm can strongly influence the motorcycle's performance.

After installing a different spring, readjust the static sag to 35 mm (± 2 mm).

i just find it hard to beleive that if paul whibley and i are the same weight we'd use the same spring rate, or is the BIG speed difference fixed with re-valving?

[Reckless]

yeah thats what half the internet say, the other half say the static sag is important on ktm's.

Look pete I'll take a punt but getting way way outa my league here!!!

I think static sag is very important but its to have the correct spring to give the correct rider and static sag. I think if you have the wrong spring in so you can only get one of the two that's why 1/2 the Internet disagree with each other. If you have the springs correct there'd be no argument the figures will be correct for both static and race sag! So Argument over!

i just find it hard to believe that if Paul whibley and i are the same weight we'd use the same spring rate, or is the BIG speed difference fixed with re-valving?

I think the short answer to this is yes you would. I can only go back to Roberts last post and quote "SPRINGS ARE ABOUT POSITION ( AND SAG RATIOS )" so yes you would have the same springs to give you max travel for your weight, making it plush. Then Paul may valve his completely different "DAMPING IS ABOUT CONTROLLING RATE OF CHANGE OF POSITION" because of his more aggressive riding style. But you would both want to use the full travel of springs (front and rear) that were correct for your weight?? I think?????

I do enduro (sand, trees, beach, farm, mud, hard pack) but MX every Wednesday and the odd Sat at Harrisville on my 200EXC so my rider sag is set at 109mm which gives me 32mm static sag. Stiction was 4mm so 2mm added the the original figures.The revavle was also a little bit of a compromise as the jumps at Harrisville are quite large. If i was enduro only I could soften mine to 112 or 115mm (I like it a fraction softer than the book) and get the 35mm static but only because the spring is correct for my 100kg. Book says 35 + - 2mm and 105 rider + - 5mm, but I don't think they make springs that would give you exact figures anyway. Sounds like if you have to make a compromise it should be with rider sag not static sag if Ktm are correct. I can only get close to both these figures because my springs are correct. Otherwise I'm back to the Internet argument which is more important Rider or static sag. I don't have that problem as my springs are right. The revalve has no effect on these figures.

The other thing to remember is of coarse aligning the forks correctly when puting the wheel back on is very very important to stop fork binding, seals wearing out etc!

OH shit now I've shot my mouth off and quoted actual figures set myself up for a right rogering haven't I! LOL!!!
But please if I have got it all wrong I'd like to know/learn more from someone much more qualified then my stupid ravings!!

[Danger]

Looks like I need to put my prices up lol! Anyway that will be happening and I've just received a fax to inform me that all KTM parts will be going up 15% from 9th of April, so as expected their expensive rear springs will be going up even more soon! Not to mention the last 25 litres of oil I got from KTM NZ also went up another $80.00! I can only absorb extra costs for so long.

Race Tech springs have also gone up recently and are the only springs I use other than the WP rears due to there higher degree of accuracy.

Pete I only skimmed quickly through the thread but I didn't see what you weighed? Anyway numbers are only numbers and the KTM manuals have been wrong for years although I believe later editions have had some updates and are better than what they were.

While its true that KTM's work better generally with more sag, I like to use a range of 110 +/- 5mm. For static I like a range between 30-35mm and thats for a progressive spring. For a straight I use 35mm +/- 5mm. I start with these because they are what I've found works best, but everyone is different, every bike is different and can be effected by wheel placement in the swing arm, N2 pressure, and the springs can vary by a 5% manufacturing variance. You see figures on the internet of 40-45mm static, but I seldom find bikes capable of running that much static. Real heavy straight rates with very little preload perhaps, but preload is important to some degree because it pushes the wheel into the ground and depressions for traction.
So I start with these numbers, but encourage riders to try a turn more or less of preload to find what works for them. Very small adjustments to preload or front fork height can bring about good improvements to handling.

If you want a quick answer Pete call me on 09 832 0153 Mon-Fri 9.00-5.30 to discuss your required spring rates.

[barty5]

Looks like I need to put my prices up lol! Anyway that will be happening and I've just received a fax to inform me that all KTM parts will be going up 15% from 9th of April, so as expected their expensive rear springs will be going up even more soon! Not to mention the last 25 litres of oil I got from KTM NZ also went up another $80.00! I can only absorb extra costs for so long.

Race Tech springs have also gone up recently and are the only springs I use other than the WP rears due to there higher degree of accuracy.

Pete I only skimmed quickly through the thread but I didn't see what you weighed? Anyway numbers are only numbers and the KTM manuals have been wrong for years although I believe later editions have had some updates and are better than what they were.

While its true that KTM's work better generally with more sag, I like to use a range of 110 +/- 5mm. For static I like a range between 30-35mm and thats for a progressive spring. For a straight I use 35mm +/- 5mm. I start with these because they are what I've found works best, but everyone is different, every bike is different and can be effected by wheel placement in the swing arm, N2 pressure, and the springs can vary by a 5% manufacturing variance. You see figures on the internet of 40-45mm static, but I seldom find bikes capable of running that much static. Real heavy straight rates with very little preload perhaps, but preload is important to some degree because it pushes the wheel into the ground and depressions for traction.
So I start with these numbers, but encourage riders to try a turn more or less of preload to find what works for them. Very small adjustments to preload or front fork height can bring about good improvements to handling.

If you want a quick answer Pete call me on 09 832 0153 Mon-Fri 9.00-5.30 to discuss your required spring rates.

got to ask what is so special about KTM oil and why wouldnt you buy from an oil company??

[Reckless]

got to ask what is so special about KTM oil and why wouldnt you buy from an oil company??

Unless you own a pumpkin you'd never understand !!!
You'd never give cheap champagne to a girl you where tryin to would ya!!!

[barty5]

Unless you own a pumpkin you'd never understand !!!
You'd never give cheap champagne to a girl you where tryin to would ya!!!

bike co dont make oil they just repackage it and add on there cost plus profit. Hence since i ride a yamaha i dont dont yamaha oil cause it anit any better than most other brands.

[Reckless]

bike co dont make oil they just repackage it and add on there cost plus profit. Hence since i ride a yamaha i dont dont yamaha oil cause it anit any better than most other brands.

Agreed! I was just pullin your chain

[Danger]

Not all oils are created equal. The best I have used in my forks is a Race Tech oil but its too expensive for general use and was one time blended by Motorex (no longer though I believe).

You do your research, you test different oils (although I have not tested any where near all of them) and you find some oils come out of a fork like treacle, some come out like water, some oxidize and cause fork pump, some don't work well with some seals, some stink and some just make the fork feel harsh. You need something that will stand up to 30-50 hours of abuse before they noticeably deteriorate, which they all will.
Viscocity index is just a range, not all 5 weights for example are the same, some act like a 2.5 weight in another brand, some act like a 7.5 weight. You find something that works, doesn't break down in a hurry, doesn't swell seals, doesn't pump up or oxidize in a hurry and is readily available for a reasonable cost and you need consistency of supply and performance. No good testing with one brand only to have to change brands and have different performance occur.
I don't like using a fork oil as some will do in the shock. The shock is susceptible to a lot higher temperature than a fork and particularly a PDS shock that has a lot of damping with the two piston design is very hard on fluid, so a higher spec shock fluid is required for these applications.

I do have contacts testing various oils and fluids and am not adverse to further testing of recommended oils. No way do I have a closed mind.
As for buying oil of a oil company, one of the oils being tested is BP bartran HV 22, but at this stage I have no results and little other information available, but anything is possible in the future.

[cheese]

LOL well that would answer your question.

Greg I hope that you aren't a two finger turbo typist cause I hate to think that you wasted half a day typing responses!!!

[barty5]

LOL well that would answer your question.

Greg I hope that you aren't a two finger turbo typist cause I hate to think that you wasted half a day typing responses!!!

no just tell me he buys over priced oil from ktm really as there is nothing i can find on any oil that ktm label as there own reality is it cou;d be anything but hey if it works for you thenn go for it. My self ill stick with the elf products never had any problems with over the last 6 years but a least you know who made it. Hell who knows ktm could be reboltling elf oil any you wouldnt know but buying direct would be cheaper.

[Danger]

no just tell me he buys over priced oil from ktm really as there is nothing i can find on any oil that ktm label as there own reality is it cou;d be anything but hey if it works for you thenn go for it. My self ill stick with the elf products never had any problems with over the last 6 years but a least you know who made it. Hell who knows ktm could be reboltling elf oil any you wouldnt know but buying direct would be cheaper.

Your the one that calls it KTM oil, not me, I never called it that. KTM New Zealand imports Motorex oil which I use, so not really sure what your point is and no where did I say how much I paid for it so how you would know I'm paying too much for over priced oil is also beyond me.
But thanks for wasting my time with such a quality discussion.

[barty5]

Your the one that calls it KTM oil, not me, I never called it that. KTM New Zealand imports Motorex oil which I use, so not really sure what your point is and no where did I say how much I paid for it so how you would know I'm paying too much for over priced oil is also beyond me.
But thanks for wasting my time with such a quality discussion.

that would be your own fault as the way you wrote it it implied it was ktm you never stated it was in fact motorex although you did metion motorex. I was saying that any oil you or anyone for that matter gets that is rebranded as someone elses you will allways pay to much for look at repco branded oil it just very low quailty mobil oil rebranded as there own same with yamaha oil.

[pete.ktm]

OH shit now I've shot my mouth off and quoted actual figures set myself up for a right rogering haven't I! LOL!!!

thanx reckless, i think you pretty much nailed it.

i had a talk to danger today and got some good info. cheers greg. even though i said i wasn't going to spend any more $ on my bike for a while i'll probably order some springs from danger. damn i thought it was thursday today, might give you a ring tomorrow morning greg but if you read this tonight you think theres any chance of couriering then down to wgtn to arrive friday??

and for anyone thinking it's about time to get your forks checked out, TSS charged $180 for "striped forks down and bleed out all old oil, cleaned base valves and all parts, assembled forks and fitted new fork oil, bleed air and set oil height, assembled forks and checked clickers". 2.25 hrs labour.

bit better than the initial $300 they quoted.

[Danger]

Arguing on the internet is like running at the special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded.

[Danger]

thanx reckless, i think you pretty much nailed it.

i had a talk to danger today and got some good info. cheers greg. even though i said i wasn't going to spend any more $ on my bike for a while i'll probably order some springs from danger. damn i thought it was thursday today, might give you a ring tomorrow morning greg but if you read this tonight you think theres any chance of couriering then down to wgtn to arrive friday??

and for anyone thinking it's about time to get your forks checked out, TSS charged $180 for "striped forks down and bleed out all old oil, cleaned base valves and all parts, assembled forks and fitted new fork oil, bleed air and set oil height, assembled forks and checked clickers". 2.25 hrs labour.

bit better than the initial $300 they quoted.

Give me a call in the morning and I'll see what I can do Pete.