did any of you see the dest buggers in town

**Coldkiwi** · 14th March 2005, 13:52

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

True, society must have laws and thats where we differ, I believe religion is nothing more than a primitive legal system with the ultimate policeman.

I'm guessing you're indirectly referring to the ten commandments (?) as a list from the Ultimate Policeman saying 'don't do this or i'll punish you'. Its interesting that although I used to view them as such, once I started learning more about the God who wrote them and the behaviour of people, I have started to see that the penaltys we pay for disobeying these commandments are not from God but come directly out of our own behaviour and choices. Call it Karma or whatever but the nuts and bolts of a healthy society start to fly out and come back to bite people that disobey things like 'do not murder', 'do not commit adultery'. Show me someone who's acted like that and I'll show you the burdens they have to carry because of it.

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

It worked once, it still works for some (hey, they may be right) but for many religions to function in a healthy society none of them can realistically impose moralistic judgements into laws.

Again, the march and all the anti-CU/prostitution debate has been about leaving what we already have alone rather than bringing in potentially damaging laws to accomodate a very small minority. Its not about imposing a moralistic judgement into a new law at all.

But on a different tack, if NO ONE imposes a moral judgement at, where do we expect our country to go? If every type of damaging sexual behaviour is legal and society throws up its hands in politically correct despair at offending somebody and INSISTS that morals stay in the church and not in legislation than surely we are heading for a country with no moral foundation to control itself from. Like you say, we need laws but I think you're kidding yourself if you want all of our laws to be completely free of moral judegements (whether based on anyones religious beliefs or otherwise) and still have a healthy society.

Think about this: incest, peadophilia... its all morally replusive to most of us now, but we're all prepared to make a judgement on those right? To cater for the few sick individuals in this country that want to be able to legally indulge in those activities (plenty would probably argue that incest doesn't hurt anyone) is out of the question now but CU legislation is (in my view) setting a precedent for this sort of thing (or all sorts of lesser but still damaging behaviours) to be argued into legality.

**ManDownUnder** · 14th March 2005, 14:05

For what it's worth - I can see that both church and state share the common ground of "morals". Some activites are prohibited by one and not the other...

Let's choose Bigamy. No worries to the Mormons (as I understand it - but open to correction), but a problem to the state (in NZ).

Likewise homosexuality, problem to the church (well some churches, unless you have a homosexual bishop etc) but not so to the state.

Both entites have evolving views on what is acceptable in these situations and there are going to be times of disagreement. It's not the first time it has happened - and it won't be the last.

As a general principal I think the separation of church and state is a good idea, but moral issues will continue to bridge the gap -no matter how carefully constructed. My understanding is that conscience votes were introduced to Parliament to address this and similar issues.

I don't think there is any point is worrying about the destiny church or the Govt's social engineering. I personally prefer to make informed choices based on what I know and believe.

If I want to support Brian Tamaki because of his beliefs and vision and leadership of the Destiny Church - I will.

If I want to vote Labour to support their social engineering policies, I will.

I believe that's one of the good things we have going for us in NZ.

MDU

**Lou Girardin** · 14th March 2005, 15:42

It's "Bishop" Tamaki now thank you. He's just annointed himself.
After the killings at an evangelical church in the US, I'm waiting for some local to 'go fundamental' here. Especially when he discovers that he's been paying 10% of his income for Brian to have all those shiny new toys and God still hasn't answered his prayers with the winning Lotto numbers.
PT Barnum was never more right.

**Coldkiwi** · 14th March 2005, 16:59

Originally Posted by ManDownUnder

I don't think there is any point is worrying about the destiny church or the Govt's social engineering. I personally prefer to make informed choices based on what I know and believe.

MDU

Not worry about the Govt? I think National have done such a poor job in opposition that SOMEONE has to worry about the govt so it might as well be the general public.

I won't get too into the media slant on the CU debate etc. but I can assure you that the way the march was presented in the Herald and on TV, making a truly informed choice on such matters based on the cold facts is getting hard.

**curious george** · 14th March 2005, 17:12

Originally Posted by Madmax

...who the hell would give there
own money to buy that wanker a bike

I've got no idea what you lot are on about, but i thought I'd add that the Harley was gifted from some evangelical friends in the states for some speaking he had done there...
anyway, back to the arguement...

**Ghost Lemur** · 14th March 2005, 18:44

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

...
PT Barnum was never more right.

You may find this
interesting as far as "There's a sucker born every minute" goes.

As for the rest of this thread. All I've got to say is how the hell did the Scottish Thread escape it's confines.

**StoneChucker** · 14th March 2005, 19:30

Man, the whole Destiny Church is a joke. It must be, I'm sure he's going to fess up oneday it was a joke that went too far. I mean come on, he can't be serious. Does he expect people to believe/buy what wafts out his "mouth"

For those of you that say:
"but thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands already do..."
Can anyone say Cult??? Brian Tamaki needs a makeover, Queer Eye... style

Watching Tamadork makes me endlessly happy that I'm not affiliated with any religion, at the moment. Ohhh, I don't know why I get so worked up over him, I don't give a shit either way on the subject...

If you will excuse me, I'm going to check my BP with my BP monitor
Ignorant, greasy, money grabbing, delusional, close minded, homophobic, blah blah, meh..........

**MOTOXXX** · 14th March 2005, 19:43

ahhh never a dull moment on kb, and never a can of worms left unopened.

:spudbooge

**Coldkiwi** · 14th March 2005, 19:45

there's some juicy worms in this one ya see

**curious george** · 14th March 2005, 19:57

Where's Zed when ya need him?
*snigger*

**Coldkiwi** · 14th March 2005, 20:18

now now, I can quote scripture (or other learned literature) myself if I really want to but its not that kinda debate (nor do I want it to become like that given how fast the scottish thread's wheels spin but how little progress it makes)

**Timber020** · 14th March 2005, 20:42

Anyone who thinks that state and church can work together forgets what George Bush is like.

**Gasman** · 14th March 2005, 21:53

Originally Posted by cammo

i missed it on hte news...but are you emplying that the destiny church members money got used to buy the leader dude bike? if so im guessing you dont know about the tamaki brother (one of which is destinys leader) who own a tourism company and have had harleys (if thats wha he was riding) for years and earn like a couple mill every year from their tourism business?

if not them im completly off the plot and dpont bother reading into what ive sed!

Different Tamaki right? There are 3 of them aren't there? 2 own the tourist bizzo and one fleeces his flock. Did you know that he owns a multi million dollar home in Maraetai and has surrounded himself with sycophants, living in houses immediately around him. Sounds vaguely familiar........The Berghof and Berchesgarten comes to mind...... BAD NEWS THIS GUY!