did any of you see the dest buggers in town

[Paul in NZ]

I'm not trying to be a smart alec Paul, but how many churches have you been to, sat down in and given a fair run? To me 'religion' conjures up the trappings of very traditional ceremony based services where 'doing the trappings right' was much more important than the congregation connecting with the God they'd come to worship. By the way the word is being used here, i'm guessing others have a similar point of view (?)

I'm not going to challenge you to go to a particular church to open your eyes to the fact that most christian churches are not orientated like this anymore, but how about considering that you may not know every church's motivations intimately and that they may not all be out to brainwash you?

No offence taken but none was intended.

But I think you should read my post again and add several hundred years to the times we are referring too....

I'm not refering to christian churches at all. Just using the word church where I should meant an off shoot of any organised group that follows a particular faith with their own version or interpretation of something. You get my drift...

I have studied a lot of religions superfically at one stage including Mormonisim and been to a lot of Churches in my lifetime. Nothing agaist them just trying to point out their origins in the dim dark past were a really good idea...

Still can't quite see your objection - sorry!

[jazbug5]

Just out of interest: who of the practising Christians feels that a marriage in a registry office qualifies as a marriage in the eyes of the Lord? Because if I were to wish to be married in the eyes and tenets of my religion, then that is where I would do it: within my religion- i.e. in a church, synagogue, whatever. Therefore there are already a great many couples out there, married in registry offices who are not married in the 'proper' sense, and yet feel as if they are.
I don't see the Church getting upset about registry office weddings. Are these people not 'living in sin'?
No-one could force a church to marry a couple they didn't feel they wanted to, either. Shotgun weddings refer to something else, surely? (Interesting image, though...) Hmmmmm.
By the way - in advance- I actually am interested in the seeming disparities between these positions.
I. Am. Not. Trying. To. Wind. Anyone. Up.

[Coldkiwi]

No offence taken but none was intended.

But I think you should read my post again and add several hundred years to the times we are referring too....

I'm not refering to christian churches at all. Just using the word church where I should meant an off shoot of any organised group that follows a particular faith with their own version or interpretation of something. You get my drift...

umm... i'm drifting somewhere but not sure its in the same direction as you!
just trying to clear up what you meant by 'churches are just organised religion' in light of my response. By adding a few hundred years, you're saying that churches are no longer just organised religion? I agree, but I didn't think thats what you'd said given the tense (or perhaps I just can't read :spudwhat: )

[Coldkiwi]

I have studied a lot of religions superfically at one stage including Mormonisim and been to a lot of Churches in my lifetime. Nothing agaist them just trying to point out their origins in the dim dark past were a really good idea...

Still can't quite see your objection - sorry!

what I was trying to get at was you seem to me to have developed a view of churches (christian or otherwise) that they are simply organisations formed to get the masses in line with what they beleive and no more. (stop me if I'm wrong)

The point of that post and my objection to your statement "God punishes those that break 'the laws'....Churches are organised religion. They interpret the word of god for the un clever people..." was to get you to consider that what you may have seen from a secular point of view as the benefits of a church may be a poofteenth of the benefits a member of the congregation may see, simply because they are truly involved.
I say this because while so many express their view that church=god='don't do fun stuff' , I have really found an amazing fulfillment from attending a church where I have been encouraged to work things out and get closer to God for myself and have a life thats free of a lot of the rubbish I used to fill it with.

[Coldkiwi]

[QUOTE=jazbug5]Just out of interest: who of the practising Christians feels that a marriage in a registry office qualifies as a marriage in the eyes of the Lord? Because if I were to wish to be married in the eyes and tenets of my religion, then that is where I would do it: within my religion- i.e. in a church, synagogue, whatever. Therefore there are already a great many couples out there, married in registry offices who are not married in the 'proper' sense, and yet feel as if they are.
I don't see the Church getting upset about registry office weddings. Are these people not 'living in sin'?
[QUOTE]

jaz, for me, the important part of getting married was not the church, the trappings or the flowers but the fact that I was making a public declaration to God that I wanted to make this work forever. That can take place anywhere, and you can wear togs for all it matters to me.
The two non negotiables are having people there to witness it so that they are part of the support network in years to come and having it run so that God is invited. If people want to have a prayer at the registry office, I would consider that asking God to be a part of the marriage, some people might do it in a church but only because they like the scenery so in that way, He's not invited.
I guess the churches in this country generally consider a couple married when they've got their marriage licence but for a christian marriage, I think the couple involved need to invite God to be part of it (and maybe that can happen some years after they go to a registry office).

[jazbug5]

Fairy nuff: that all makes sense, and sounds like a lovely way to start out in a loving marriage (togs or no!).
But how many people who do get married practise their religion? Or believe in God? I think if I were a christian it would particularly upset me when couples insisted they had a white wedding with all the trappings etc in a church, and didn't believe in God at all! It seems those sorts of weddings lose sight of what it's all about (surely) and seem to be a display for the sake of it almost.
So why not a form of non religious ceremony for those who are not actually christians: straight or gay? One way or another, let's not forget that all have one thing in common: two people are joining their lives together to show their love for one another in a way that is both personal and public.
I'd rather see that than see a punch up any day!

[spudchucka]

And how would being involved in politics instantly make a church leader worthy of scorn and judgement anyway? Can you explain that flaw to a simple man such as myself? :spudwhat:

Because politicians constantly lie. No body survives in that world, (politics) unless the fib their pants off.

[StoneChucker]

It seems to be a general (uncontested) concensus here that homosexuality is wrong? Now please, I'm not gay so no immature suggestions to that fact.

But who gives any one person the right to say what is right or wrong for another? I find it very hard to believe that the bible in it's current form, is exactly as it was when written. I have a big problem with alot of aspects of religion. Some ideas which have been thought of as fact, have over time been proved otherwise (medical, scientific, archeological, whatever).

If you don't like something, or are close minded and insecure, don't try to impose and force your feelings onto other people.

Lets not forget what currently causes all the trouble in the world, religion and money.

[oldfart]

& this all goes to prove the old saying that 2 subjects never to discuss are religion & polotics because either will just end up in sh*t fight

[spudchucka]

It seems to be a general (uncontested) concensus here that homosexuality is wrong? Now please, I'm not gay so no immature suggestions to that fact.

But who gives any one person the right to say what is right or wrong for another? I find it very hard to believe that the bible in it's current form, is exactly as it was when written. I have a big problem with alot of aspects of religion. Some ideas which have been thought of as fact, have over time been proved otherwise (medical, scientific, archeological, whatever).

If you don't like something, or are close minded and insecure, don't try to impose and force your feelings onto other people.

Lets not forget what currently causes all the trouble in the world, religion and money.

I'm only replying to this because I'm on my second day off after night shift and I've drunk the best part of a bottle of wine, (in other word its against my better judgement and I'm a bit pissed).

I have nothing against homosexuals of either sex unless they try and hit on me, (I'm very happily married). So long as they don't bug me then I won't bug them.

I don't have too much of a problem with religion, (I actually have pretty firm beliefs that I consider to be very private and I am not at all demonstrative about)

I do however have big problems with churches of all denominations that lie to their followers, which seems, (from my perspective) to be most of them and the Destiny outfit is right up ther amongst the worst offenders, (as are all the evangalistic church outfits that extract "holy tax" out of their followers).

I agree with you about the current cause of the worlds major problems, (in terms of violence and genocide) religion is the primary culprit and does the minimum to address the issue.