Drugs - UK v Holland

**candor** · 10th May 2009, 14:52

Originally Posted by DangerousBastard

That it is 'salient' does not even suggest it is a contributing factor, just that is often in common. So which way around is it? That dope smokers are likely candidates for this type of behaviour, or that people who behave this way are likely candidates to smoke dope?
Steve

By salient I meant contributing. It is not one way round it is both ways round in a vicious circle. The antisocial are more likely to smoke dope (its in diagnostic criteria for sociopaths DSM4) and the dope is likely to cause them to decompensate and wreak havoc. Plenty studies support this.

Where in hell I found hundreds of murderers - in long stay psych wards, in prisons, in community rehabs, in drug /alcohol treatment facilities and initially in work experience in assessing offenders via courts.
Over 20 years work round the country I have met and known quite well literally in the hundreds.

And sociopaths and narcissists are not such a small part of the population as you think. Vastly underdagnosed and may go up to 5% in our population. Start looking over your shoulder - there are more if less dramatic Jans out there. I was part of the crew that unwillingly released them to the community 1980s and could even tell you the childs play areas the high threat ones hang out at.

**awayatc** · 10th May 2009, 15:23

Drug and alcohol testing could prevent some chemicaly altered brains making devastating decisions.....

I would suggest we start at the Beehive.....

**RantyDave** · 10th May 2009, 15:23

Originally Posted by T.G.W

Until crimes such as the "napier siege" are addressed at many levels SST continues to grow.

Oh ffs, do you really think that man considered the legal implications of pulling the trigger before he did so? No. It was "Pigs! I am Rambo! BANG!". That he took his own life afterwards indicates that the full implications of his actions did, eventually, sink in and that he was going to be on the receiving end of a very thorough arse-kicking indeed.

But don't get me wrong. I don't understand why we take proper hardened nutcases, stick them inside with other proper hardened nutcases for a few years and expect them to come out as anything other than still proper hardened nutcases. Maybe sometimes they can be rehabilitated. Maybe we need to have "a better idea" of what to do with the ones that can't. And I do think New Zealand has ludicrously light sentences for certain kinds of crimes - why, for instance, are rapist policemen ever let out? And why can't we put the bitches to work while they're in there?

The rest of your post was a thought crime for which you'll do twenty years in a gulag. We will be kicking your door down at 3am. Don't bother packing.

Dave

**RantyDave** · 10th May 2009, 15:28

Originally Posted by candor

The antisocial are more likely to smoke dope (its in diagnostic criteria for sociopaths DSM4)

I'm sorry, first it was hundreds of murderers and now it's smoking dope being one of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy. There were no sociopaths before dope? Are you telling me Hitler must have enjoyed a toke every now and then because otherwise he wasn't a sociopath?

Does that count as a Godwin?

Dave

**Genestho** · 10th May 2009, 15:31

Originally Posted by RantyDave

Oh ffs, do you really think that man considered the legal implications of pulling the trigger before he did so? No. It was "Pigs! I am Rambo! BANG!". That he took his own life afterwards indicates that the full implications of his actions did, eventually, sink in and that he was going to be on the receiving end of a very thorough arse-kicking indeed.

Oh no I agree Dave!

But don't get me wrong. I don't understand why we take proper hardened nutcases, stick them inside with other proper hardened nutcases for a few years and expect them to come out as anything other than still proper hardened nutcases. Maybe sometimes they can be rehabilitated. Maybe we need to have "a better idea" of what to do with the ones that can't. And I do think New Zealand has ludicrously light sentences for certain kinds of crimes - why, for instance, are rapist policemen ever let out? And why can't we put the bitches to work while they're in there?

You're asking the wrong person these questions, as I and others, ask the same questions, I, have only questions too..
The rest of your post was a "thought" crime for which you'll do twenty years in a gulag. We will be kicking your door down at 3am. Don't bother packing.

Dave

Lol, sweet as, Ranty Dave

**candor** · 10th May 2009, 15:43

Originally Posted by RantyDave

now it's smoking dope being one of the diagnostic criteria for sociopathy. There were no sociopaths before dope? Are you telling me Hitler must have enjoyed a toke every now and then because otherwise he wasn't a sociopath?

Why is your "thinking" continually all or nothing. Sociopaths need not meet all of the diagnostic criteria - just a majority. I think we've just outed NZs biggest liberal. When the murderer comes shall you turn the other cheek - wish him a good rehab program then offer up your extended family as well. Wouldn't surprise me at the rate your spouting

**Bikernereid** · 10th May 2009, 16:36

Originally Posted by The Stranger

On what basis should we legalise (or otherwise condone) something that may cause harm to others?

Who smokes fags and/or drinks alcohol and/or drives a car or rides a motorbike? All dangerous and all legal!!

**Bikernereid** · 10th May 2009, 16:47

Even when I gave various addicts the entire selection of spider webs to guess which drug had which affect they found it difficult to identify which drugs cause which web. What is even more interesting is that none of them got the caffeine spider web they all thought it was created be a p or crack spider.

And caffeine is legal.

**James Deuce** · 10th May 2009, 17:26

Don't you be messing with caffeine.

**The Stranger:Me** · 10th May 2009, 17:31

Originally Posted by Bikern1mpho

Who smokes fags and/or drinks alcohol and/or drives a car or rides a motorbike? All dangerous and all legal!!

So this is your basis for legalising or condoning a dangerous past time?
Were that so and were it applied to all such past times heaven help us.

Virtually anything can be dangerous. So I accept a poor choice of words in my initial post, I feel my second to more accurately reflect my intent.
However at least some of those things have a valid use in society - for example transport. Given that anything can be dangerous then it makes sense that the "dangerous" element is secondary and the practise be legalised in many cases.
However one wonders at the need filled by dope or hard drugs (but for addiction).
Also, it is perhaps pertinent that both alcohol and tobacco pre-existed the knowledge of the real dangers associated therewith. To "undo" tradition, national economies, a way of life, livelihoods and industries has a far greater impact. Perhaps best we don't go there in the first place.

I really don't believe that "me too" constitutes sound rationale.

**jonbuoy** · 10th May 2009, 19:20

Theres also a political party in Holland that wants to lower the legal age of consent to 12 and legalise bestiality. You think thats a great idea too? Many dutch people think its a huge mistake to be so slack on drug use.

**CookMySock** · 10th May 2009, 20:33

Originally Posted by jonbuoy

Theres also a political party in Holland that wants to lower the legal age of consent to 12 and legalise bestiality.

Right, thats it - I'm going Dutch!

Steve

**gatch** · 10th May 2009, 20:52

Drugs are fuck all, whether they're illegal or not is nearly irrelevant, they are still going to be sold, bought and used. Like the locusts, you will never rid society of them.

What amazes me is that cigarettes are legal and will remain legal, when these kill by far and wide more people than every single illegal drug put together (and probably multiplyed). They cause just about every kind of cancer, they kill people just by being near smokers, they fuck up your sperm and eggs leading to fucked up kids, poor people spend alot of coin on smokes instead of food and shoes and rent, just like any other drug addict they turn other wise reasonable people into right cunts if they can't get their hands on them, still legal..

Think for a second how many people you know of that are dead/fucked up from smoking or alcohol related incidents compared to how many you know in the same circumstance from illegal drug mis-use.

Like I said, drugs are fuck all, if there is a band wagon to be followed it should be the war on smoking and drinking.

**Bikernereid** · 10th May 2009, 20:58

Originally Posted by gatch

Drugs are fuck all, whether they're illegal or not is nearly irrelevant, they are still going to be sold, bought and used. Like the locusts, you will never rid society of them.

What amazes me is that cigarettes are legal and will remain legal, when these kill by far and wide more people than every single illegal drug put together (and probably multiplyed). They cause just about every kind of cancer, they kill people just by being near smokers, they fuck up your sperm and eggs leading to fucked up kids, poor people spend alot of coin on smokes instead of food and shoes and rent, just like any other drug addict they turn other wise reasonable people into right cunts if they can't get their hands on them, still legal..

Think for a second how many people you know of that are dead/fucked up from smoking or alcohol related incidents compared to how many you know in the same circumstance from illegal drug mis-use.

Like I said, drugs are fuck all, if there is a band wagon to be followed it should be the war on smoking and drinking.

Have tried a number of things in my time and by far the hardest to give up was fags!!! They are evil and cost our societies a fortune in health care, time off work etc. There is no reason why governments couldn't de-legalise them if they really wanted to but why should they when the tobacco comanies have so much power and when politicians can be on their boards. How many people die from drug related issues compared to those related to alcohol. How much crime is alcohol related compared to those related to alcohol?

**The Stranger:Me** · 10th May 2009, 21:20

Originally Posted by Bikern1mpho

Have tried a number of things in my time and by far the hardest to give up was fags!!! They are evil and cost our societies a fortune in health care, time off work etc.

Good on ya for giving up those aids infested Honda riders.