Party pills BANNED!

[Wolf]

A tax on the sale of the regulated product being sold in shops is what im talking about. People wont buy dodgy bzp if they can buy legitimate stuff in shops. Homemade bzp will only be made when its illegal to buy, and the demand for the drug outweighs the supply

People arent that stupid.

Nope, no one in the country is stupid enough to buy dodgy drugs of unknown quality, no one is stupid enough to drink and drive or mix pills and alcohol...

We've never had any issue with irresponsible people misusing drugs - legal or otherwise - in this country. No road deaths either. People aren't stupid.

Its cheaper and safer than alcohol I guess, and does the same job in getting you excited about the otherwise mundane activities like going into town on a saturday night?

Jesus, you are seriously sad, aren't you?

If heading into town on a Saturday is too mundane for you, stay home. And I suggest counselling for your disorder - Who knows, in a few years you might get to the point when going to town is "mildly enjoyable".

Please dont resort to random name calling if you have nothing to add to the conversation. Thats not what KB is about is it.

I does have a certain tradition...

And it's better than saying "Maybe if you had been taking BZP instead of riding bikes as a hobby you would still be able to walk. And the tax payer wouldnt have had to pay to fix you up" to one of the more respected members on this site.

Act your age, not your post count.

[davereid]

Nope, no one in the country is stupid enough to buy dodgy drugs of unknown quality...We've never had any issue with irresponsible people misusing drugs - legal or otherwise - in this country....

Actually its the prohibition that exacerbates the problem.

Drugs like MDMA are very very safe, much safer than alcohol. But they are hard to make. The prohibition of MDMA led to P, which of course is very easy to make, but absolutely destructive.

While we can debate the reasons why people like to change their perception of reality with drugs, we can't alter the fact that people do, and always have chosen to do it.

[eHonda]

Just like people won't buy dodgy home-brew if they can buy legitemate stuff in shops? Tuis moment.

Most people buy liqour from the shop. The tax they pay makes a large contribution to cleaning up all alcohol related damage. As such most people will buy pills from the shops because if it was regulated, then they know it will be of good quality and measured dose, and wont ruin their night by making them sick. I havent heard of anyone using homemade bzp.

You could say - just like people wont drive around without a motorbike helmet on if you can just buy them in shops - sure people will, but they are the minority - stupid and will learn the hard way.

And you were the one to link the two activities - I brought up a practical reason for motorbikes - couldn't find one for BZP related products except to make psychotic worm-free cattle.

I just made an analogy, look it up on wikipedia.
here was my answer-
Well if it had no benefits then it wouldnt be selling. People arent that stupid. Its cheaper and safer than alcohol I guess, and does the same job in getting you excited about the otherwise mundane activities like going into town on a saturday night?

But I can also have a glass of wine with a meal, a can or two of beer after cutting the grass etc.
Don't do THOSE things to get pissed.

Do you take a nibble at a party-pill so you don't get a buzz or something like that??? I doubt it.

The difference is party-pills are only ever taken for one reason.

And a lot of those who take party-pills also drink to get pissed - often at the same time as they're taking party pills....Well down here in unsophisticated red-neck Southern land they do.

What do they do in Auckland? - take latte's with their party-pills???

People take BZP because they like the effects, people drink alcohol cos they like the effects. How much of whatever you take is up to the individual. If they choose to overindulge then they suffer the consequences. Thats life.

[slowpoke]

Whats the bet most of you anti-party pillers love to go out and get pissed,a fair percentage i bet.
Whats the difference here?

So what's your point? You think party pills are gonna help the situation? Pissed and pingin' is waaaay worse than just pissed, and Scumdog and co can testify (literally) to that fact.

If these things are so safe and have no side effects then would you give them to your children? If not, why not? I catch a 1:30am flight for work every three weeks and I can see the benefits of kids staying awake for a few extra hours rather than being tired, cranky little shits. Could be a nice little earner for the party pill market. I mean, there's no harm with taking them is there?

[eHonda]

Jesus, you are seriously sad, aren't you?

If heading into town on a Saturday is too mundane for you, stay home. And I suggest counselling for your disorder - Who knows, in a few years you might get to the point when going to town is "mildly enjoyable".

You see many completely sober people in town? Maybe one or two sober drivers.

Nah it never was my scene, I like to party at friends houses where I am not surrounded by sleazy wannabe posers and violent mongoloids, and the music is not shit.

[eHonda]

If these things are so safe and have no side effects then would you give them to your children? If not, why not? I catch a 1:30am flight for work every three weeks and I can see the benefits of kids staying awake for a few extra hours rather than being tired, cranky little shits. Could be a nice little earner for the party pill market. I mean, there's no harm with taking them is there?

So, you getting your kids a bottle of rum each for christmas are you? Its safe to drink isnt it? Whats your point, regulation of pills would stop them being sold to children, the same as alcohol. Neither has no risk of side effects, but once you are over 18 you are old enough to choose what you want to consume.

[slowpoke]

So, you getting your kids a bottle of rum each for christmas are you? Its safe to drink isnt it? Whats your point, regulation of pills would stop them being sold to children, the same as alcohol. Neither has no risk of side effects, but once you are over 18 you are old enough to choose what you want to consume.

My point is that these things are often espoused as being completely safe...so why the age restriction?
I find the comparison to alcohol to be quite ludicrous actually. Saying that alcohol is legal therefore these things should be too is the ultimate shot in the foot considering the amount of alcohol related problems we have. It's like saying "thats stupid and I want to be able to do something stupid too", where is the logic in that? To make things even more unpalatable, the party pill stupidity only exacerbates the alcohol stupidity.
Yes, alcohol is dangerous and to a degree steps are being taken to limit the danger (drink driving limits and policing, modified pub hours, advertising etc), unfortunately the problem is so endemic in society it is now difficult to manage. The steps are small but they are being taken.
The party pill ban is attempting to stop a present and potential problem before it becomes endemic and unmaneageable.

[inlinefour]

My point is that these things are often espoused as being completely safe...so why the age restriction?
I find the comparison to alcohol to be quite ludicrous actually. Saying that alcohol is legal therefore these things should be too is the ultimate shot in the foot considering the amount of alcohol related problems we have. It's like saying "thats stupid and I want to be able to do something stupid too", where is the logic in that? To make things even more unpalatable, the party pill stupidity only exacerbates the alcohol stupidity.
Yes, alcohol is dangerous and to a degree steps are being taken to limit the danger (drink driving limits and policing, modified pub hours, advertising etc), unfortunately the problem is so endemic in society it is now difficult to manage. The steps are small but they are being taken.
The party pill ban is attempting to stop a present and potential problem before it becomes endemic and unmaneageable.

And by banning the party pills and avoiding, or attempting to avoid an epademic, that cannot be a bad thing. At least there is one less thing to worry about, I hope...

[Wolf]

I think that eHonda is also missing an important fact about alcohol...

It's by far the easiest drug to manufacture but it's just as prone to "bad brews" as all the others - a cursory examination of the Prohibition era in the States reveals that.

BZP, P, LSD etc require complicated set-ups, even grass - in large-scale operations - is a hassle compared with home made alcohol.

Remember, I'm not talking quality homemade brews and spirits that require finesse and care, here, I'm talking the hastily-made shit that you can knock out and sell off to a less-than-discerning "dry" crowd - the stuff that destroys organs or leaves you blind.

Prohibit alcohol and you're putting the easiest made drug into the hands of the criminal fraternity and we have the USA's worst historical nightmare with modern weapons...

[Wolf]

To elaborate on my previous quick post.

Current abuse of legally available alcohol is a bigger problem than abuses of the illegal drugs - largely because a higher percentage of the population uses alchohol (to various exents) than any other mind-altering drug (hence I'm ignoring nicotine as it is not psychotropic, merely heavily addictive).

The high percentage of alcohol users equates to a higher number of people overdoing the booze than the number of people overdoing other drugs so the number of cases of alcohol-related problems is greater than those of other drugs.

The figures for other drugs would probably climb a little if they were made legal (as a few more people would use them and they would be able to be used more freely) but they still probably would not get to the same figures as alcohol owing to its popularity.

And therein lies one of the biggest problems with the prohibition of alcohol - as the US learned to its cost.

Any vegetable matter can be made into alcohol - including lawn clippings and table scraps if you don't care about quality or taste (possibly because you're brewing it as fuel for your car).

Making whiskey, vodka, gin etc is difficult work and requires finesse.

Making ALCOHOL is dead simple and requires minimal equipment.

And you can't control the raw ingredients (as you can attempt to do with the ingredients for P etc) as most of them are food (if you're making quality booze) and lawn clippings will do at a pinch.

So, they outlaw alcohol. Suddenly the most popular recreational pyschotropic in the country (with at least 100s of thousands of users) is illegal and the production and supply is in the hands of the gangs.

Of course, to keep up with demand, the gangs are going to have to produce a lot of booze very quickly - so you can pretty much guarantee there will be more stills producing fuel-grade alcohol quickly and cheaply than there will be stills producing reasonably good home-made spirits.

Don't believe me? What, the gangs never cut the quality drugs with other shit before selling to the punters?

Fuck, most PUBS cut their top shelf booze! Go and buy a nip or two of your favourite top shelf tipple and the chances are high that what you get is 40-90% (depending on the greed of the company/publican) VAT-69 or worse. The average age of your shot of 12-year-old scotch may very well be something like 6 months...

The only difference is that the pubs cut their top shelf stuff with actual intended-for-human-consumption alcohol (crap taste and quality though it may be) that is technically the same type as what they're diluting, whereas the gangs aren't likely to care if what they're mixing in is more grass-clipping rot-gut than decent alcohol.

The available booze in a prohibition will be of unknown quantity and will be controlled by the gangs - as the other illegal drugs are now - and they'll have a larger market than they ever had.

Of course, we could never have the probs that the USA had with prohibition, could we. Our gangs would never use firearms and violence to settle turf/distribution disputes or to discourage aspiring amateurs. They'd never shoot at police or blow up a rival gang's "speak-easy".

And the public here would never go to an illegal drinking den or buy bootleg liquor.

Suuuuure.

So: prohibition of alcohol would cause more problems than it would solve - gang warfare, potentially poisonous alcohol, pretty much impossible to police or to track/control raw materials etc.

P, BZP, LSD etc are easier to make illegal and control and they still can't completely prevent the manufacture, distribution and use of these drugs.

Making/keeping alcohol, despite its problems, legal while clamping down on other drugs is a matter of "choosing ones battles" - they're losing often enough against the other drugs.

They would fail spectacularly if they tried to outlaw alcohol - just as the USA did.

"They should make other drugs legal because alcohol is" is one of the most naively stupid rationales I have ever heard - we have enough problems with a legal drug they can never stop and people illegally mixing other shit with it without them making it legal to have the other shit as well.

I'm well aware that it is the minority of alcohol (and other drug) users that cause thge problems and the majority of all users are moset-likely temperate, but willfully adding to the problem would just be plain stupid.

[eHonda]

So: prohibition of alcohol would cause more problems than it would solve - gang warfare, potentially poisonous alcohol, pretty much impossible to police or to track/control raw materials etc.

Yeah thats also a reason why I dont think they should ban BZP. BZP is really popular at the moment. 20% of NZ have tried Party Pills from one survey done http://www.biggie.co.nz/editorial/ar...udy_stanz.html. When it gets outlawed there is going to be people buying up large from the shops and still using it after its made illegal. When their personal stash all runs out they will be desensitised to using illegal drugs (they allready have been while using up their stash). Then they may hear of drug dealers (their mates, mate) with it (or something that passes for it) for sale, which is bound to happen and then sooner or later they end up sick/dead from bad pills, or in jail from getting into trouble with whatever else the drug dealer pressures them into buying. And the drug dealers get richer with more drugs/customers, and gang warfare increases etc.

"They should make other drugs legal because alcohol is" is one of the most naively stupid rationales I have ever heard - we have enough problems with a legal drug they can never stop and people illegally mixing other shit with it without them making it legal to have the other shit as well.

Saying that alcohol is legal therefore these things should be too is the ultimate shot in the foot considering the amount of alcohol related problems we have. It's like saying "thats stupid and I want to be able to do something stupid too", where is the logic in that?

Yeah well if you want party pills banned and you drink alcohol, then you are being a hypocrate. Every time you drink you support the alcohol companies (to make more alcohol and advertise more) and influence others (including young people who might look up to you) into thinking that drinking is the normal thing to do. Thus adding to the drinking problem, yet all the time saying others shouldn't add to the BZP problem, by taking BZP.

[Wolf]

So you don't drink at all, eHonda, yet you tried party pills?

Or are you one of those "hypocrites" that drink alcohol, compounding the hypocrisy by lashing out at others who do?

[doc]

I think that eHonda is also missing an important fact about alcohol...

It's by far the easiest drug to manufacture but it's just as prone to "bad brews" as all the others - Remember, I'm not talking quality homemade brews and spirits that require finesse and care, here, I'm talking the hastily-made shit that you can knock out and sell off to a less-than-discerning "dry" crowd - the stuff that destroys organs or leaves you blind.

Prohibit alcohol and you're putting the easiest made drug into the hands of the criminal fraternity and we have the USA's worst historical nightmare with modern weapons...

I take that as an insult to my integrety. My brews are prepared with the upmost finesse and care. I save the first 50 mls for my lawn mower and the remainder of the spirit, that comes off above 92 degree's I give to the less fortunate. The body of the brew I keep.

[Wolf]

My brews are prepared with the upmost finesse and care. I save the first 50 mls for my lawn mower and the remainder of the spirit, that comes off above 92 degree's I give to the less fortunate.

And good stuff it is, too - indistinguishable from sniffing smokeless powder

[doc]

And good stuff it is, too - indistinguishable from sniffing smokeless powder

Mmmmm so you also snort stuff. I hope that is an over the counter powder ?