Flags, colours, and their use

[Sketchy_Racer]

happended last round as i checked up accross the line and got swamped by following riders from the lead then crashed at higgins remembering i was only in clubmans. now bike totaled and cant ride for few months due to injuries.

To be honest mate, the reality is that you need to be paying more attention to the flag points. If you can't see difference between a flag and a shirt etc, it's a bit of a worry, and it's not fair to associate your accident with something someone did or didn't do on the pit wall. The only person controlling what the bike is doing is the fullah on the top of it.

[MSTRS:Me]

hey MSTRS...

i was on the end of a mic (ear peice ).. and i heard the MNZ Steward asking point after point to get a flag out to stop that rider...... NOT one seamed to know what
"get that flag out to stop that rider" meant

Can't speak for the other points...all I know is that 'our point' got the call to 'get that rider off the track'. Marshalls are not allowed to use the red flag without being told to, and are not allowed to mention it by name over the radio (just in case the other points hear the call when there isn't one). We asked control if we were to 'terminate that rider' and they said do what you need to, just get him off the track - and the rider just carried on.

[crazzed]

IF you had known what the flags were...

and remembered where they were (as they are always shown on the first time around for every class)

maybe you would not have been distracted???

this brings up another one of MY points.....

how many racers do you see walk/push bike around the track, making mental notes of what is where, what the track is like, where the flags should be, pot-holes, white lines... etc..

it is up to YOU to know what you are racing on.... we do a track inspection, and tell of anything we think you may need to know... but unless YOU take a look for yourself...... how will you know?????

now don't say there is no time!!!!!!!!!!!
the gates are open at 7am, rider's brief is 8:30ish........

AJ

i did walk around and we were there at 7. the complaint happened at the marshal point and clubmans is for learning and spectators should not be over the WALL!

[crazzed]

Informal vs formal channels and forcing the answers. Speak to whoever you want - things that are documented will be dealt with - things that aren't will fall to the wayside (the meetings are extremely busy and things that are not raised formally don't always get priority.

all done via email

[crazzed]

To be honest mate, the reality is that you need to be paying more attention to the flag points. If you can't see difference between a flag and a shirt etc, it's a bit of a worry, and it's not fair to associate your accident with something someone did or didn't do on the pit wall. The only person controlling what the bike is doing is the fullah on the top of it.

and you didn't learn you went straight out and were at the top. as stated i was racing clubmans when this happened.

[Skunk]

The area is now kept clear of specators. The flag point was over 1.5 metres above where the shirt was waved.
My views:
1/ Should all specators be banned from the track in case they do something stupid? I don't think so. Nor should they be stopped from watching. Supply the club 20 or so voluteers and I think the club might have the manpower to make sure nothing like this could happen again.
2/ If he was such a distraction why did you take two kilometres and several corners and straights to finally crash? Is that an example of your reactions? Or are you just looking for someone other than yourself to blame for out-riding yourself?

[FROSTY:Me]

Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.
If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.
If a red flag was the one that was waved then the fault is not with the rider its with the flag that was chosen.

[yungatart]

Im sorry guys to dissagree with you here. I'd say Im a reasonably experienced rider.
if I saw a red flag I would slow, Raise my left hand (curtosy to other following riders) and head back to the pits at about half race pace in a normal manner. I would at all times be prepared to stop if needed Because that is EXACTLY what a red flag tells me to do.
If I saw a BLACK flag waved at me I would get off the racing line slow down and prepare to stop knowing full well the issue is with my conduct or there is an issue with my machine.
If a red flag was the one that was waved then the fault is not with the rider its with the flag that was chosen.

Marshall points don't have black flags, Frosty. The red was waved at this particular rider, the marshall's other hand was quite clearly indicating that this rider needed to pull over HERE and NOW.

[Teambwr47]

where a racer was spewing fluids and was individually redded to got off NOW

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved

I've always understood the flag rules (well certainly UK ACU wise) to be that, the black flag was the flag to be used to stop an individual rider and that flag should be accompanied by the rider number or failing that a very clear indication from a marshal to the rider concerned. It can be shown at marshal points and the start/finish line.

The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not normally mean stop straight away (unless indicated at a point on track to do so) it means stop racing and substantially reduce pace proceeding as per instructions. I guess this could cover the rider in question being required to stop but i just question the use of the red flag for that reason?

[BMWST?]

using red flag to get one rider to stop is not the proper use for it...and the riders breifing and other instruction quite clearly state to go back to the pits...

[FROSTY:Me]

if not WHY NOT?? Can I suggest that is more the issue.
Was the oil flag used?? which would have given me another clue the issue was my bike.
--Hey look Im sorry I wan't there I can only tell you what I would do being a racer of a fair few er decades.
If I saw a red flag I would slow ect I would NOT pay any heed to the hand motions of a marshal. I've got other stuff to worry about -like the next corner--- are we past half race--how longs the next session- do I need warmers back on. Have I got enough fuel load to finish if we just in and out the pits.
sorry guys but if you've racedd BOTS or whanganui. or nelson you learn to block out whats going on on the sidelines.
An example was at nelson in 2002 an amply endowed young lady in a yellow tee shirt insisted on leaning over the fence right in front of the marshal point. -if I diddn't block out her movements I'd have missed the actual flag marshal

[yungatart]

How would you individually red flag a rider? It would be very hard at most tracks to guarantee another rider following behind had not seen the red flag shown or moved



The red flag being shown to a rider could surely be easily mistaken by another following rider as the race is being stopped and while it may well not be at the next post an element of doubt on what's going on would be in place. If i ever see a red flag or glimpse it I reduce pace ASAP as its meant to be for the end of racing, most likely for a major incident or problems on track. Equally a red flag does not mean stop straight away, unless indicated at a point on track to do so?

The red was waved at ONE rider. The marshall was out of the marshall point directly on top of the tyre wall in front of the marshall box at this point. He was pointed to by the marshall, the marshall then raised his/her hand in a "Stop" sign fashion (like the police do at a roadside check point) and then pointed to the side of the track, clearly indicating to that rider to pull off the track HERE and NOW!!
There were no other riders in close proximity...it could only have been directed at that particular rider!
We are talking SS class here, not superbikes thundering through at 200+ Kph four or five riders abreast.

[Tony.OK]

Ok who knows the cost of a flag?

To support VMCC I'd be happy to donate a black with orange spot (if they're not too expensive). Would be good to have the correct "get off the track flags".

Anyone else?

[sinfull]

Pleased you have started this thread John as i (being relatively new) did not know that a red being waved at me would mean stop where i am, I would be just like this rider who carried on unfortunately !
You say he was indicated to, to pull off the track there but shit thats a tough one to make a call on whether he picked up that indication !

Crazzed ! The wall WAS made off limits to spectators yesterday, at riders brief !
But as has been said, the wall is not where the flags are waved from and you did crash at higgins ! Sorry mate that aint the fault of no black shirt waving spectator !
Thats would be like me saying something like, it was Sketchies (who has learnt by the way, he didn't just arrive yesterday and start winning) fault that i crashed in splash yesterday, i mean i had been chasing him for a lap and a bit since he passed me in Qualifying and well hey if i hadn't been trying so hard to stay in touch (haha ok so it was half a lap by that stage) i would never have gone into splash so hot !!!! HELLO !
You highsided at higgins mate, learn from it if you can remember how it went down, don't try and pin that on anyone else !
Black flag means you or your bike has a prob, It's waved at an individual rider not a group, you come in and see what it is ! Not go so hard you highside a minute later !

[Teambwr47]

Listen not having a go at the marshals involved, they all without exception do a great job without which we as racers would not be able to race.

I've raced at most levels in over 150 meetings and i completely agree with Frosty, in my opinion the red flag was/is the wrong flag for that type of incident. Equally while the person using the hand signals may well have known exactly what his meaning was the rider may well have a different view/interpretation of those hand signals based on all he had going on in trying to race his bike.

I completely appreciate that the officials did what they could on that day at that time for the best but the flag is still the wrong one, a black flag should have been used.

Why have the posts not got black flags?