Racetech gold valve install - self-install?

[Shaun]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Ha Ha, you are O so funny, and obviously very intelligent

Please stay on KB making a fool of your self, I am enjoying you being here, it is normally me or Drew making dicks of our selves


Love Ya Drew

[madbikeboy]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

There's no difference between the stereo's at the Warehouse and my $30k system. Functionally, they do the same thing.

There's no real difference between a BMW and a Toyota, 4 wheels and all that.

There's no difference between a Versace suit, and a Barker's off the rack.

Keep posting - you'll give Carver a run for his money in the Village Idiot stakes...

[Robert Taylor]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
Most of my customers are like me very much in the real world, I treat them with respect and with very few exceptions thats reciprocated in kind. If someone is going to act like a moron then it will always be reciprocated in kind. Especially if they make stupid way off the mark assumptions. Most of my customers are also everyday road riders who dont travel at warp speeds and simply want suspension that is both more compliant and controlled.
Its all in the detail and just for you I will spell it out ( again ) but Im not giving all of my trade secrets away. Bear in mind also that I have over the years fitted literally thousands of valving kits and emulators so I think I can justifiably comment from that experience, which in any event was originally offered in the spirit of helping people.

When fitting emulators the truth of fitting and therefore sealing on the top rod is ( almost ) EVERYTHING. In greater than 80% or so of stock damper rod type forks the damper rod when torqued up does not sit concentric to the inner tube. That means that the top hat piston ring does not seal all the way round. That impacts primarily on a major loss of rebound damping control. So machining and careful clocking of the rod is always neccessary. Its seldom possible to attain perfection as often the rods are not straight! Springs are also seldom perfectly flat on their ends, so combine an off centre rod that is bent and whose sealing surface is not perpendicular to the inner tube with an unsquare spring....thats a further recipe for uncontrolled bleed. I favour as much as possible the emulator being a semi snug overlapping fit into the top hat of the rod.
Lower damping holes, adding extra. I dont favour this, especially with road bikes that have often only 120mm travel. I favour as much as possible enlarging the existing holes so that their total flow area just exceeds the internal bore size of the rod. If you have extra holes upwards of the existing you have just reduced the high speed rebound damping, not so much issue on a dirt fork with 300mm of travel, but a big issue on a damper rod fork that is being used for road racing in our budget level classes. Incidentally, there are still a good many new models with damper rod forks, we are not just talking old bikes.
Paul Thede ( owner / founder of Race Tech ) stayed at my house for a week approx 1 year ago. I had a conversation with him about the position of extra holes and he totally agreed with what I have said above. We pull apart more than a few forks that have had self instals and seen how these extra holes have been added, the scary part is that all too often the burrs have been dressed off in a grinder on the outside surface that is also a sealing surface! It passes in close proximity to a spring loaded check plate or fixed seal ring encapsulated in the bottom of the fork inner tube. This regulates / seals the flow path inbetween chambers. Many Yamaha forks are badly afflicted with poor sealing control in this area.
Traxxion Dynamics do among others replacement damper rods for SV650s, as so many of these bikes get raced. These damper rods are actually straight and true and will torque up into the forks concentrically! The piston ring recess is processed slightly less deeply so that the seal on the piston ring is improved. The rod diameter is also a little larger to improve the seal on the bottom chamber checkplate system. The bottom feed holes dont radiate up the rod and the rebound hole is carefully calibrated to work with a specific centistroke rating of oil, reference temperature 40 degrees celsius.
Poppet bypass bleed holes are reworked in size to suit the application, that is not in the attached literature.
Even with all of the careful machining, care of assembly etc that is never any guarantee that the rebound speed will be ''correct''. This is fine tuned in the end by the size of the rebound bleed hole. This often needs bronzing up with its attendant risk of rod distortion and reworked. It is also fine tuned by oil viscosity selection, and Im NOT talking SAE ratings, which are misleading. Silkolene 5 weight for example has the same approximate flow rate as most of the 10 weight oils. Many have come unstuck on that alone.
And then there are other examples that you have to be wary of, for example many Harleys have so much weight acting upon the ''raked out'' forks that the rebound speed on the push test has to feel a lot faster than the feel we get with most Japanese road bike forks.
If you are a one off installer how well developed is your perception of rebound feel, etc etc?????
And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

[Robert Taylor]

I don't doubt your experience but I found this comment curious!? Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
Luke

Okay, 2 riders, both 85 kg, one is 6 feet tall and the other 5 feet 2 inches.

Effect on front: The taller rider will have more upper body weight that will cause the bike to pitch forward more under especially heavy braking.

Effect on rear: The taller rider will often sit slightly further back to actually fit the bike and that places a little more leverage on the rear end.

The real world effect can often be small or reasonably significant and then there is the often stated factor of ''rider feel'' or what they want.

Spring selection charts are a guideline, they are not gospel. When we go to a road race track and work with the top riders we take alternative spring options and test them. Rider feel and lap times and the two major pre-requisites, not ''THE'' numbers.

The difference is rear spring rate requirement on a GSXR1000K7 between rear axle fully forward to rear axle fully back is 1/2 a full spring rate. LEVERAGE.

[Fatjim]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

[Robert Taylor]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

Yes that is what he was saying but did he have to do so in a such a manner? If thats HIS real world then he can be happy with his low standards, I have merely spent a lot of time detailing the many fish hooks and undocumented issues to look for.

[JD Racing]

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
Most of my customers are like me very much in the real world, I treat them with respect and with very few exceptions thats reciprocated in kind. If someone is going to act like a moron then it will always be reciprocated in kind. Especially if they make stupid way off the mark assumptions. Most of my customers are also everyday road riders who dont travel at warp speeds and simply want suspension that is both more compliant and controlled.
Its all in the detail and just for you I will spell it out ( again ) but Im not giving all of my trade secrets away. Bear in mind also that I have over the years fitted literally thousands of valving kits and emulators so I think I can justifiably comment from that experience, which in any event was originally offered in the spirit of helping people.

When fitting emulators the truth of fitting and therefore sealing on the top rod is ( almost ) EVERYTHING. In greater than 80% or so of stock damper rod type forks the damper rod when torqued up does not sit concentric to the inner tube. That means that the top hat piston ring does not seal all the way round. That impacts primarily on a major loss of rebound damping control. So machining and careful clocking of the rod is always neccessary. Its seldom possible to attain perfection as often the rods are not straight! Springs are also seldom perfectly flat on their ends, so combine an off centre rod that is bent and whose sealing surface is not perpendicular to the inner tube with an unsquare spring....thats a further recipe for uncontrolled bleed. I favour as much as possible the emulator being a semi snug overlapping fit into the top hat of the rod.
Lower damping holes, adding extra. I dont favour this, especially with road bikes that have often only 120mm travel. I favour as much as possible enlarging the existing holes so that their total flow area just exceeds the internal bore size of the rod. If you have extra holes upwards of the existing you have just reduced the high speed rebound damping, not so much issue on a dirt fork with 300mm of travel, but a big issue on a damper rod fork that is being used for road racing in our budget level classes. Incidentally, there are still a good many new models with damper rod forks, we are not just talking old bikes.
Paul Thede ( owner / founder of Race Tech ) stayed at my house for a week approx 1 year ago. I had a conversation with him about the position of extra holes and he totally agreed with what I have said above. We pull apart more than a few forks that have had self instals and seen how these extra holes have been added, the scary part is that all too often the burrs have been dressed off in a grinder on the outside surface that is also a sealing surface! It passes in close proximity to a spring loaded check plate or fixed seal ring encapsulated in the bottom of the fork inner tube. This regulates / seals the flow path inbetween chambers. Many Yamaha forks are badly afflicted with poor sealing control in this area.
Traxxion Dynamics do among others replacement damper rods for SV650s, as so many of these bikes get raced. These damper rods are actually straight and true and will torque up into the forks concentrically! The piston ring recess is processed slightly less deeply so that the seal on the piston ring is improved. The rod diameter is also a little larger to improve the seal on the bottom chamber checkplate system. The bottom feed holes dont radiate up the rod and the rebound hole is carefully calibrated to work with a specific centistroke rating of oil, reference temperature 40 degrees celsius.
Poppet bypass bleed holes are reworked in size to suit the application, that is not in the attached literature.
Even with all of the careful machining, care of assembly etc that is never any guarantee that the rebound speed will be ''correct''. This is fine tuned in the end by the size of the rebound bleed hole. This often needs bronzing up with its attendant risk of rod distortion and reworked. It is also fine tuned by oil viscosity selection, and Im NOT talking SAE ratings, which are misleading. Silkolene 5 weight for example has the same approximate flow rate as most of the 10 weight oils. Many have come unstuck on that alone.
And then there are other examples that you have to be wary of, for example many Harleys have so much weight acting upon the ''raked out'' forks that the rebound speed on the push test has to feel a lot faster than the feel we get with most Japanese road bike forks.
If you are a one off installer how well developed is your perception of rebound feel, etc etc?????
And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

Robert makes some excellant points here, I end up finishing off lots of self installs that have gone wrong. In addition to the above, the most common "have a go yourself" fault is a complete lack of cleanliness, rods installed in dirty sliders, swarf inside the damper rod after drilling etc, other problems are not changing worn bushes whilst the forks are apart, new seals fitted to stone chipped stanchions, not shortening the preload tube.

Racetech make some good products but their philosophy that anyone can fit the stuff themselves is ludicrous, it also adds to the problem that Robert has spoken about many times where a builder can get bored with laying bricks, decide he's going to become a suspension tech, buy half a dozen kits of Racetech and bang he's in business.

[madbikeboy]

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
....And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

I think that has to be the nicest way I've ever seen "you're an idiot" written.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert makes some excellant points here, I end up finishing off lots of self installs that have gone wrong. In addition to the above, the most common "have a go yourself" fault is a complete lack of cleanliness, rods installed in dirty sliders, swarf inside the damper rod after drilling etc, other problems are not changing worn bushes whilst the forks are apart, new seals fitted to stone chipped stanchions, not shortening the preload tube.

Racetech make some good products but their philosophy that anyone can fit the stuff themselves is ludicrous, it also adds to the problem that Robert has spoken about many times where a builder can get bored with laying bricks, decide he's going to become a suspension tech, buy half a dozen kits of Racetech and bang he's in business.

Thanks JD. With respect to your second paragraph it pretty much mirrors what I have said to Paul Thede on a number of occassions.

[Shaun]

Thanks to Rob and JD for making this crystall clear to the people on here.

Safety is very very important to me, perhaps I should have used different words.

Not off subject, just high lighting the importance of doing these mode professionally

[pritch]

My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Some members of the public though seem to fall over themselves in their rush to look like clueless morons?

As a matter of interest, do you actually have a clue as to who these "self proclaimed" experts are? A little time with the Search facility could prove enlightening. Or then again...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I know when I took my LC forks apart there was $1 of 20cent coins in each fork leg

did you play some spacies, au?

[Shaun]

Some members of the public though seem to fall over themselves in their rush to look like clueless morons?

As a matter of interest, do you actually have a clue as to who these "self proclaimed" experts are? A little time with the Search facility could prove enlightening. Or then again...

Carefull mate, you will recieve a red rep for taking this off subject

[Robert Taylor]

Carefull mate, you will recieve a red rep for taking this off subject

I think the infraction you received for earlier comments in this thread were well worth the price, you stated the bleeding obvious.
On subject, if anyone has any questions about emulator installation I am happy to answer.

[dipshit]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

And here lies the problem with your typical NZ motorcycle mechanic.

As a consumer I would want them installed and tuned in a way that would improve the handling of my bike as best as possible in order to actually get value for money from purchasing the bits in the first place.

Too many mechanics think that simply fitting the parts and having no oil leaks and the forks still go up and down when he pushes on the bars afterwards is a successful job and he can go make the bill up.