Fork emulators?

[davebullet]

We modify emulators specifically for road race use to much more effectively modulate brake dive speed. There is as much in careful pre-prep and attention to detail as anything.
I think there needs to be a much wider sampling rate of Intimators ( particularly with more challenging installations ) before a blanket opinion is formed.Im not doubting they have serious merit, its just too easy to get carried away with all the hype to then find that maybe they havent got all bases covered.

I agree the only objectivity is using like for like components when only the emulators differ and a suspension dyno is used to obtain measurements allowing comparison between compression and rebound damping properties.

I would assume Brian at Ricor uses some objective measurement techniques, otherwise the product was hit and miss and improvements also likely to be the same.

When I install them, I'll only be able to subjectively state how they help, with laymans terms and all open to interpretation. Unfortunately, those are the only tools at my disposal.

[Padmei]

I've just come across this thread & find it very interesting. I have purchased & installed a set of intimators for my 08 KLR650. Those more experienced riders I've ridden with that have intimators rate them highly however I can't seem to get mine going.

I have posted a lil experiment on KLR650net. Please read with a belly full of happiness. http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

I have used castrol5w ISO15 in the forks however I think if anything the front end is worse.

I concede that the problem may be my inexperience at the wheel but I give it a good workout over very rough terrain & can't notice the difference.

Any advice? If it stays the same I'll just either forget about them, sell them or ake them out & put the car valve springs back in I had before.

[F5 Dave]

I've just come across this thread & find it very interesting. I have purchased & installed a set of intimators for my 08 KLR650. Those more experienced riders I've ridden with that have intimators rate them highly however I can't seem to get mine going.

I have posted a lil experiment on KLR650net. Please read with a belly full of happiness. http://www.klr650.net/forums/showthread.php?t=72228

I have used castrol5w ISO15 in the forks however I think if anything the front end is worse.

I concede that the problem may be my inexperience at the wheel but I give it a good workout over very rough terrain & can't notice the difference.

Any advice? If it stays the same I'll just either forget about them, sell them or ake them out & put the car valve springs back in I had before.

There's the problem! You shouldn't be 'at the wheel'. Try fitting handle bars.

erm Valve springs? You mean you were running Valve springs as "Spring Boosters?" if so all this did is over preload the forks while softening the spring rate. Yes softening. Sorry haven't read the thread you posted, when I have time maybe.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

That chart is already out of date with at least respect to Ohlins oil and it shouldnt be taken as gospel. There has been a lot of reformualtion and further improvement of this oil range and it is ongoing.
Certainly sae ratings for suspension oil is a load of bollocks.

I updated the Ohlins info.

I made that several years ago but haven't been doing to much lately so I haven't stayed on top of it. The majority of the info there is manufacturer's specs so if anyone knows of any other specs that are out of date let me know and I will fix them.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

It wouldn't attach for some reason.

Here it is.

[davebullet]

I've finally got everything I need to put mine on the SV650. Just need some time. I'm interested to see how much of a difference $321 makes. If nothing, I'll be sure to report it here to save others the same issues. Without a suspension dyno, I have nothing in the way of objectively measuring the difference.

[Blackflagged]

yep, the last thing we need in NZ is people willing to try something different.
Next thing you know people will be thinking for themselves without prior approval.

My new favorite saying ! ha ha
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And also... what did we do before shock dyno`s ? Back in pre time.

[Blackflagged]

This is quite a good link,for explaining simply the basic`s of how a damper rod fork works.
http://www.fjmods.btinternet.co.uk/emulators.htm

[Robert Taylor]

My new favorite saying ! ha ha
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And also... what did we do before shock dyno`s ? Back in pre time.

What did we also do before engine dynos? But you miss the point, such technology makes it a whole lot quicker and objective.

[Ivan]

Ok guys Emulators should be left to Robert T and Dennis these 2 guys are fricken awsome, CKT did my SV650 front race forks best money I could spend on them!

The difference it made was huge these guys really know there onions and Rob is a genuine good guy who is trying to make it a safer place and most people try and insult his intelligence,


I will not go any were else bar Rob my Forks out my ZX6RR are sitting in his workshop now getting the magic touch

[pritch]

most people try and insult his intelligence

Bit tough there Ivan? Most of us appreciate just how lucky we are to have Doctor Robert on our door step. Particularly those of us in the Naki and those who race.

There are some who don't get it, but you generally get what you pay for. Sad but true, R&D is expensive.

Most of the posts I've seen that quibble about Ohlins products or prices originate from people that appear to be relatively new to KB and perhaps motorcycling, or who seem to be in the habit of window shopping without checking the price tags.

There's a misconception that Ohlins are only about extracting the last 10% of performance. That may, or may not be true for racers, but it isn't true for me. I don't think it would be true for a guy who chose to get Ohlins shocks fitted to his Rocket Three either...

[Ivan]

Not Tough at all, People who respect his ways then shouldnt feel offended by my post im not judging anyone in this thread but people read alot of threads and theres alot of people who use stupid tags and are to gutless to name themselves like to call him all the names under the sun, I respect the man for his efforts how many places in the world do you get something like this out of somoene without costing you Rob gives out alot of advice free of charge.

Once again I say it if you have nothing to feel bad about then dont get offended by my post

[Robert Taylor]

We wanted to get the Ninja 250 buzz going so we sent a set of Ricor inertia valve inserts to a California rider who had just posted about the Emulators she installed and liked.

This email was sent to us after her day at the track:

Wow. I had a great day. The bike handled beautifully. The front end was much smoother and helped the rear shock work better. She didn’t dive at all. My bike was smoother in setting up so I could enter the corners much faster. The rebound was smooth as well. They are really great. Even with the RT emulators and 10 weight oil she still dove on braking. I prefer them to the Race Tech emulators 10 to 1, and compared with the stock shocks they are 100% better. I’m going to take her out on some twisties up Hwy 33 this week so I’ll let you know how she handles on the street.

Let me know if you want me to do a more complete write-up. I’ll be happy to post to my Ninja and other bike sites. So…when are you going to have a shock ready for the little ninjas??

Thanks again to you and Brian(?),

Elizabeth Rodeno

I really would like to see a much wider sampling over many more models to be convinced. Especially with models that have tiny holes in the damper rods and the worst tolerancing and alignment issues of those rods.
Many casual observers think Emulator or Intiminator installation is a straight drop in, indeed you can but often the success of the job falls well short of what is possible. Intiminators in theory address one of the issues of damper rod forks, positive sealing at the top end of the damper rod, providing the surface they are sitting on is flat and totally perpendicular to the fork axis ( damper rod top hat ) which all too often they are not. They also will give much better ride height control as the low speed bleed passage is suitably sized. That will mean the fork will ride higher in its stroke and not blow through too readily. So not precompressing the springs too much and therefore allow a modicum of plushness. In truth a well installed Emulator setup with the bleed hole size fine tuned for the application will have exactly the same result. But when something abrupt is ridden over very generous flow area is exposed to absorb the worst of it. Allied with processing of the standard damper rod holes to remove any flow restrictions at that point also. Oil viscosity has less and less effect the bigger the orifice.
Please correct me if Im wrong but I have concern that the max flow rate of an Intiminator may be more restrictive than is ideal for very bumpy roads. Here in NZ we are rather more attentive to that issue as we have a much much higher frequency of bumpy roads that challenge the ultimate absorption of any damping devices.
I have always favoured the idea of a modulating shim stack to control flow but the very tight installation is its utimate limitation of what is possible in peak flow. I applaud you for giving it a go but there is so much more that can be addressed....

[RicorSHX]

Please correct me if Im wrong but I have concern that the max flow rate of an Intiminator may be more restrictive than is ideal for very bumpy roads. Here in NZ we are rather more attentive to that issue as we have a much much higher frequency of bumpy roads that challenge the ultimate absorption of any damping devices.
I have always favoured the idea of a modulating shim stack to control flow but the very tight installation is its utimate limitation of what is possible in peak flow. I applaud you for giving it a go but there is so much more that can be addressed....

You've raised the question of whether or not the Intiminator has enough flow for very bumpy roads. The answer is absolutely yes. At the highest velocities, all the ports in the valve are being used. Some oil is able to exit through the open inertia valve, the rest is being metered by the shims.

The compression stroke fluid displacement is directly related to the fork tube wall surface area, not the diameter of fork valve insert. The damper rod valve is subjected to fork tube wall oil displacement only. There is a huge difference. On a SV650, the fork tube wall is equivalent to a .750" piston diameter. The total flow orifice surface area in the the Intiminator is equivalent to a .458" hole (inertia valve + shim holes). The Emulator max flow surface area is equivalent to .524 hole. Race Tech recommends 10-20 wt oil. We recommend 5 wt.

By addressing chassis control on the compression stroke, the rebound response can/should be softened to reduce tire force variation resulting in a significant improvement in traction. The super progressive rebound response due to the orifice type metering is detrimental to traction and needs to be reduced by using thinner oil.

In our opinion, the Emulator bleed is many times too large given the effective piston size of .75" for adequate brake dive resistance. How much does it cost to get the right size bleed in there? With the effective piston size of .750 and an Intiminator max flow surface area of one .49" orifice, it's much larger than needed for any extreme rough road.

The production class SV650 we support was tested and 2.74 seconds faster with the Intiminators after removing the Emulators. That was due the much later braking (increased transition resistance) and increased traction in the turns (lower tire force variation). The team has placed 1st every time since.

That being said, the inertia valve acts like a 'brain' inside the fork tube. It provides firmer chassis motion response than a conventional shock can be tuned for and still get the comfort/traction response with the higher wheel inputs.

Ricor inertia valve history: The hydraulically manipulated inertia valve was developed to equip the Citroen Dakar Rally cars. Prior to being Ricor equipped, the fastest speed on the African test loop was 138 kph, with Ricor shocks 185 kph. Prior to being Ricor equipped, they were slower than the Mitsubishi's. After, they won every rally they entered. Mitsubishi later used the Ricor system and won again. The Ricor inertia valve system has many times more Dakar 1st place finishes than Ohlins. The Ricor system was licensed to Donerre for European race applications.

[JD Racing]

I wonder if Paul Thede's patent lawyers have seen these http://www.debrix.com/41mm-Fork-Damp...24-0361-vt.htm

At that price they must be made by 6 year olds in China.