No more domestic applications (but international fine WTF!)

[Winston001]

Stop handing over cash. Tell them to get fucking over it. Earn your own living.

As a matter of interest Dave, can you tell us how much actual cash?

[mashman]

For shit that happened hundreds of years ago? An apology for some of the shit might be order, might be, and then close the cheque book and move on. Why the fuck whould I/we be paying for age-old screw-ups, if that's what they were.

because that's the way the money train works... and our government do nothing to protect us, the majority, because the minorities now have a UN mandate to screw the country (and it's people) because Key, very very sneakily, signed us up for this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ters-tolerance... so we have ZERO choice in the matter.

[peasea]

because that's the way the money train works... and our government do nothing to protect us, the majority, because the minorities now have a UN mandate to screw the country (and it's people) because Key, very very sneakily, signed us up for this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ters-tolerance... so we have ZERO choice in the matter.

Yes we do.
Guns.
Shoot them in the face.

[Dave Lobster]

As a matter of interest Dave, can you tell us how much actual cash?

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

[davereid]

Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

You don't need a taxpayer funded degree to conclude that giving anyone privilege on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or spiritual beliefs is fundamentally flawed.

Of course if you do have a taxpayer funded degree, you will have doubtlessly been taught that it is ok.

[huff3r]

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

Have they looked over the ditch and seen how tough their old neighbours have it? They think theyve suffered injustice, well guess what. So has any indegenous peoples anywhere in the world. But if it werent for that they would not have a lot of the stuff they take so readily for granted today either. Imagine if the government didnt have any land to start with. Imagine what our (non-existant) roading would be like?

As far as I'm concerned I was born in NZ, I am a kiwi just as much as the next guy, so I dont get why the next guy gets access to hundreds of extra scholarships, gets to vote in a different system I'm locked out of, and gets to ask for money for stuff that happened so long ago no-one actually remembers.

Can't we, as a country, stop living in the past? And just get on with our futures? No wonder so many people ditch NZ once they are done with their degrees, with the high levels of racism and elitism in this country!

[Winston001]

You don't need a taxpayer funded degree to conclude that giving anyone privilege on the basis of ethnicity, religion, or spiritual beliefs is fundamentally flawed.

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that.

[Winston001]

I'm too lazy to google it. On top of the cash, how much does it cost government to broker the 'free' agreements? Like the seabed one (more than once), the giving away of all the volcanoes in Auckland, etc?
Does pandering to the maori do any good for the country?

If you tried a little research Dave you'd discover that most of the Treaty settlements are by way of land and entitlements such as fishing. There isn't actually a lot of cash involved.

As for why do it? Like it or not NZ is a Maori nation and they were treated dishonestly by our forebears. Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that, make settlement gestures, and lance the angst of Maori people. I can't see any harm in it.

The Canadians are doing the same for Inuit. The USA has recognised Indian reservations to the extent they have their own police and courts. The Australians are 30 years behind us but educated Aboriginals won't go away and we'll see the same process soon over the water.

[mashman]

If you tried a little research Dave you'd discover that most of the Treaty settlements are by way of land and entitlements such as fishing. There isn't actually a lot of cash involved.

As for why do it? Like it or not NZ is a Maori nation and they were treated dishonestly by our forebears. Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that, make settlement gestures, and lance the angst of Maori people. I can't see any harm in it.

The Canadians are doing the same for Inuit. The USA has recognised Indian reservations to the extent they have their own police and courts. The Australians are 30 years behind us but educated Aboriginals won't go away and we'll see the same process soon over the water.

The bold bit I agree with, but more from the point of view that it will make us closer to being 1 culture... screw making payout claims, we're all to be treated equally I thought... and I would imagine the Maori and i'm talking about the people, not their leaders, would happily go along with it... i may be wrong, but i don't for a minute think they enjoy seeing the society that's around them today either...

[davereid]

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that.

When did I say that Winston ?

[Winston001]

When did I say that Winston ?

You referred to ethnicity as no reason for privilege. Maori are NZ's ethnic group. They are only 10% of the population but are disproportionately represented in prison, social welfare, and health statistics. If we were all one nation getting along together with no barriers, then Maori would only have 10% of the problems.

Positive discrimination which is also called affirmative action has been politically accepted in the USA to help black americans for decades. Ever since Brown v Board of Education in 1954.

A modern decent society helps its members who are at the bottom of the heap. The Treaty settlements right a few wrongs and give Maori the chance to help themselves. Ngai Tahu for example are very canny and a major force in the tourism industry. As a result they offer scholarships and encouragement. I'd rather see that than Hilton Hotels etc repatriating their profits overseas.

[davereid]

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that.

... you are saying that you can use race to determine that people are inherently less fortunate and intellectually disadvantaged...

Maybe you can.

Still I guess we will just have to differ here. You can call it affirmative action, I'll call it racism.

Real affirmative action would provide assistance to lift all out of the gutter, not just the racially approved.

[Winston001]

... you are saying that you can use race to determine that people are inherently less fortunate and intellectually disadvantaged...

Maybe you can.

Still I guess we will just have to differ here. You can call it affirmative action, I'll call it racism.

Real affirmative action would provide assistance to lift all out of the gutter, not just the racially approved.

Fair enough. I don't really see it as a racial issue. Instead its a culture, an identifiable group, which in this discussion happens to be the diluted descendants of the humans living in NZ when the Europeans arrived. Quite a few people who look just like white Europeans turn out to be part-Maori and proud of it. I was with a guy this afternoon who looked like a rough white biker, beard and all, turned out to be Maori. No big deal.

Racism incidentally is negative discrimination against a racial group. Positive assistance for such a group is the exact opposite.

If I've been less patient than usual on this thread, I apologise. Also I thought the same as many others when the Treaty industry started but having watched it for 20 years and seen no harm, my views have altered.

[Dave Lobster]

Maori culture and language are unique to NZ. We are better off as a nation if we accept that.

How are we? I can't see a single way that we are.

So we get rid of privileges for less fortunate people? No more wheelchair ramps. No intellectually handicapped workshops and homes. Quite right, why didn't I think of that.

Not the less fortunate. Just the lazy. Personally, I don't see mental people, or wheelchair bound people as that..

You referred to ethnicity as no reason for privilege. Maori are NZ's ethnic group.

And boy, don't we hear about it?!!

They are only 10% of the population but are disproportionately represented in prison, social welfare, and health statistics. If we were all one nation getting along together with no barriers, then Maori would only have 10% of the problems.

They are also disproportionate in gangs, and criminal activity. This has nothing to do with the white man too, does it? I was in a police station a couple of weeks ago, and had a look at their 'most wanted' walls. Not many pale faces on there..
This isn't a maori problem. Other countries have it as well, where one race is pandered to over the others.

Positive discrimination which is also called affirmative action has been politically accepted in the USA to help black americans for decades. Ever since Brown v Board of Education in 1954.

At the expense of whites. And look at the trouble it causes.. There is no such thing as positive discrimination. Discrimination is discrimination. Aparteid is aparteid.

A modern decent society helps its members who are at the bottom of the heap. The Treaty settlements right a few wrongs and give Maori the chance to help themselves. Ngai Tahu for example are very canny and a major force in the tourism industry. As a result they offer scholarships and encouragement. I'd rather see that than Hilton Hotels etc repatriating their profits overseas.

A modern decent society helps those that need help. Not the ones that are at the bottom of the heap because they didn't pay attention at school, etc.
The treaty doesn't right wrongs. The treaty makes a lot of people pissed off, and a handful of people very rich.
To whom are these scholarships offered? Is it a criteria based on race? Imagine if a company only offered scholarships to white people (or indian people). How bad would that be??

[davereid]

Racism incidentally is negative discrimination against a racial group. Positive assistance for such a group is the exact opposite.

So if you positively assist a minority racial group thats OK ?.

I'm sure white south africa wished you had spoken out 20 years ago !

The trouble with positive assistance for one racial group, is that it means that by definition that funding is not available for other racial groups.

Surely its impossibly to "positively assist" maori without being racist to the Tongans, Samoans, Vietnamese or whoever who may have similar need for assistance, but don't qualify because of their race ?