Teachers only day

[oldrider]

I will have to disagree about collective contracts. They are definitely useful when a large number of employees are involved. Remuneration rates are only one part of collective contracts there are also all the other working conditions that have been fought for and won over many decades by unions. Things like an 8 hour working day, lunch rooms, reasonable toilet facilities etc.

Well, that's what the unions tell you but most of those things were really the result of advancements in technology and competitive production methods!

The unions probably slowed the advance of improvements down but I don't expect many of the great brainwashed to agree with or understand that notion!

Competition breeds excellence, whereas collectivism is the birthplace of mediocrity!

I.E. Imagine a race, where (by arrangement) everybody crossed the finish line together, every race, every time!

The only records ever broken would be for slowness!

Just another way of looking at things, something to ponder perhaps.

[Howie]

Why should a teacher give up a day in his/her holidays to do professional development?
Holidays are just that, holidays...where one gets to relax and have time away from work related stuff.
Teacher only days should be during school term time, parents need to organise themselves better if they can't cope with one day, FFS!

The problem becomes larger when you have one child in the primary area and another in the first years of secondary, as very rarely are the teacher only days on the same day for each sector. I read that as another example of the education department/ schools dictating to their customers what they should do.

Why do all teachers have to have the same day off? Other industries organise their training around the main focus of the business. Very few if any close the doors for a full day for training purposes.

Well, that's what the unions tell you but most of those things were really the result of advancements in technology and competitive production methods!

The unions probably slowed the advance of improvements down but I don't expect many of the great brainwashed to agree with or understand that notion!

Competition breeds excellence, whereas collectivism is the birthplace of mediocrity!

I.E. Imagine a race, where (by arrangement) everybody crossed the finish line together, every race, every time!

The only records ever broken would be for slowness!

Just another way of looking at things, something to ponder perhaps.

so you would say someone having to work a 6 hour shift in the retail sector, in a sole charge position in a retail mall, who is not allowed to close the shop to have a meal/drink break or even to go to the toilet is alright?? oh and this isn't ages ago but very recently.
Lets not also forget the hundred or so people that are killed in work place accidents each year, or the 700-1000 people that die each year from gradual process illnesses and dieases caused by exposure to dangerous processes in the work place, some of which are purely shortcuts taken by businesses to help the bottom line. But this is really a subject for another thread.

[oldrider]

so you would say someone having to work a 6 hour shift in the retail sector, in a sole charge position in a retail mall, who is not allowed to close the shop to have a meal/drink break or even to go to the toilet is alright?? oh and this isn't ages ago but very recently.
Lets not also forget the hundred or so people that are killed in work place accidents each year, or the 700-1000 people that die each year from gradual process illnesses and dieases caused by exposure to dangerous processes in the work place, some of which are purely shortcuts taken by businesses to help the bottom line. But this is really a subject for another thread.

No I wasn't saying anything specific really, just suggesting things can be different if you think about them differently!

We tend to get pushed into one line of thought depending who we gather our prompts from.

Perhaps "brainwashed" was a poor choice of words but I can't think of a friendly one that says what I wanted to say.

Wasn't trying to be confrontational, just thinking from a different angle.

[Howie]

No I wasn't saying anything specific really, just suggesting things can be different if you think about them differently!

We tend to get pushed into one line of thought depending who we gather our prompts from.

Perhaps "brainwashed" was a poor choice of words but I can't think of a friendly one that says what I wanted to say.

Wasn't trying to be confrontational, just thinking from a different angle.

I didn't think you were being confrontational, but I also think unions still have there place in the modern workplace. I like to discuss differing points of view as it is good to have an open mind about different solutions to issues.

As to the subject of this thread teacher only days. I just think that the education department/ schools have not put enough thought into the pressures that finding child care for these days puts onto some parents/families, as I have heard a lot of people complain about the timing of them.

[watermellon]

I've been a teacher for years. I'd leave tomorrow if I had a better offer. I love the teaching aspect and that keeps me going but I am drowning in paperwork. The time I get for planning lessons is being eaten away by new requirements, measurements, some or other thing I need to be seen to be doing, some or other educational flavour of the month taxonomy that must be woven into my lessons and documented accordingly, some inspection preparations, the new curriculum, the old curriculum, the new resources that'll be out of date by the end of term, the behavioural issues I'll have to address with a seven-tiered conflict management system, the calls from and to parents, the lock-down rehearsals, the fights I'll step into (appearing later on a website near you), the pressure to get lazy kids more and more credits they don’t deserve, and the Teacher Only days that we don’t want and that are invariably a complete and utter f*****g waste of time (most often in time set-aside by Govt. for new curriculum preparations – not the school’s choice). I’m not arsed that many on here think the job is a breeze. If you haven’t done the job then you’ve no idea what it’s like and if you’re too thick to realise that, you could never qualify for the job in the first place. For the record, it took five unpaid years to qualify and about a decade to reach the $69,000 I earn. Make of that what you will. I couldn’t give a shit.

[oldrider]

I didn't think you were being confrontational, but I also think unions still have there place in the modern workplace. I like to discuss differing points of view as it is good to have an open mind about different solutions to issues.

As to the subject of this thread teacher only days. I just think that the education department/ schools have not put enough thought into the pressures that finding child care for these days puts onto some parents/families, as I have heard a lot of people complain about the timing of them.

My wife was the local school cleaner for many years and their union used to send out a periodical to it's members to keep them up to date.

I used to read them from cover to cover because I found them interesting and rather informative.

I agree with you that there is a place for unions and collectives and this group is a case in point.

I believe that workers who do highly skilled work should be encouraged and trained to negotiate their own employment contracts with their direct employer (manager).

Companies should also train and empower their managers to negotiate and set the employment contracts of the workers that they are directly responsible for too.

Employment rewards should be based on performance and contribution to the overall performance objectives of the company rather than based solely on qualifications.

Qualifications should only feature in establishing the suitability of the applicant for the position on appointment and for personal development or advancement once the position is occupied.

These are the some of the reasons that I am constantly disappointed by the fact that school teachers sell themselves short by not demanding to be able to negotiate performance employment contracts on their own behalf.

Instead, they hide anonymously amongst a union collective and allow (often) lesser capable individuals to negotiate for them in one of the most important agreements of their lives!

If they are not prepared to back themselves why should I (or you) want them to be teaching my precious children or grandchildren in the most formative years of their lives!

I believe this lack of intestinal fortitude shown by our state school teachers is one of the early building block failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!

Birds of a feather flock together.

Monkey see, monkey do!

How satisfied are you that state schools are providing the best possible influence on our children, beyond all possible doubt.

Who really then benefits from teacher only days and why?

[ukiwi]

My wife was the local school cleaner for many years and their union used to send out a periodical to it's members to keep them up to date.

I used to read them from cover to cover because I found them interesting and rather informative.

I agree with you that there is a place for unions and collectives and this group is a case in point.

I believe that workers who do highly skilled work should be encouraged and trained to negotiate their own employment contracts with their direct employer (manager).

Companies should also train and empower their managers to negotiate and set the employment contracts of the workers that they are directly responsible for too.

Employment rewards should be based on performance and contribution to the overall performance objectives of the company rather than based solely on qualifications.

Qualifications should only feature in establishing the suitability of the applicant for the position on appointment and for personal development or advancement once the position is occupied.

These are the some of the reasons that I am constantly disappointed by the fact that school teachers sell themselves short by not demanding to be able to negotiate performance employment contracts on their own behalf.

Instead, they hide anonymously amongst a union collective and allow (often) lesser capable individuals to negotiate for them in one of the most important agreements of their lives!

If they are not prepared to back themselves why should I (or you) want them to be teaching my precious children or grandchildren in the most formative years of their lives!

I believe this lack of intestinal fortitude shown by our state school teachers is one of the early building block failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!

Birds of a feather flock together.

Monkey see, monkey do!

How satisfied are you that state schools are providing the best possible influence on our children, beyond all possible doubt.

Who really then benefits from teacher only days and why?

You really need to make the effort to find out why there is no "performance" clause in a teachers contract before spouting this kind of misinformed bollocks.

Ask yourself how would you assess the performance of the teacher, by the results of the children they teach? So how would you obtain the results, by standardised testing? This would simply give you fodder to rant on about how unscrupulous teachers only teach what is necessary for the students to gain high pass marks in order to reach a higher pay level. The phrase no win situation springs to mind.

Rather than spouting phrases like "a lack intestinal fortitude" as a means of stroking your self righteous ego and blaming teachers for the apparently inevitable "failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!" you could you use your special super hero power, You know the one, it gives you the ability to know exactly what is wrong with the world, exactly how it should be fixed. exaclty who is to blame and how, of course, its never you.

There are answers to the problems regarding teaching standards and sorry to burst your bubble they dont revolve around a performance clause in a contract or performance pay.

As for teacher only days, 99% of teachers, that I come in contact with, feel exactly the same as parents, an inconvenience we could all do without.

By the way oldrider what is or was your profession?

[oldrider]

You really need to make the effort to find out why there is no "performance" clause in a teachers contract before spouting this kind of misinformed bollocks.

Ask yourself how would you assess the performance of the teacher, by the results of the children they teach? So how would you obtain the results, by standardised testing? This would simply give you fodder to rant on about how unscrupulous teachers only teach what is necessary for the students to gain high pass marks in order to reach a higher pay level. The phrase no win situation springs to mind.

Rather than spouting phrases like "a lack intestinal fortitude" as a means of stroking your self righteous ego and blaming teachers for the apparently inevitable "failures that destine our children to accept collective mediocrity rather individual excellence in their life goals!" you could you use your special super hero power, You know the one, it gives you the ability to know exactly what is wrong with the world, exactly how it should be fixed. exaclty who is to blame and how, of course, its never you.

There are answers to the problems regarding teaching standards and sorry to burst your bubble they dont revolve around a performance clause in a contract or performance pay.

As for teacher only days, 99% of teachers, that I come in contact with, feel exactly the same as parents, an inconvenience we could all do without.

By the way oldrider what is or was your profession?

Emotional but at least it is a response, did you read post #50 by watermellon, it seems to support my view point.

Are you trying to suggest that all teachers are the same and there is no way of telling the difference between their individual performances or results?

I made judgement of the results of our education standards by reading countless employment applications from school leavers and the decline was disturbing.

For what it is worth, I was involved from shop floor to management in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises.

[ukiwi]

Emotional but at least it is a response, did you read post #50 by watermellon, it seems to support my view point.

Are you trying to suggest that all teachers are the same and there is no way of telling the difference between their individual performances or results?

I made judgement of the results of our education standards by reading countless employment applications from school leavers and the decline was disturbing.

For what it is worth, I was involved from shop floor to management in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises.

I am suggesting that you are in no position to make the statements you made. If you are basing your whole argument on a few job applications within a specific industry you are at best misguided.

Of course not all teachers are not the same, equally not all poice, nurses, pilots, chefs, cleaners or shop floor managers in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises are the same. However can you tell me how we make that judgement in teaching.
If my students obtain higher test scores than yours should I get paid more?
Will we consider the support at home the students recieve? Any underlying individual issues such as learning difficulties? The time of day the test was administered? Did the child have breakfast?
Should it be based on how much the BOT or community like me and not you?
Also if my students do not reach the required standard for me to move to a higher pay level can I blame you as the parent, for not supporting me enough as your childs teacher, and demand you compensate me.
Yes I know its sounds ridiculous but no more ridiculous than teachers recieving performce related pay, that is to anyone who has an understanding of education (and I mean education and not the education system)

[watermellon]

ukiwi. You're wasting your breath. The world's full of armchair experts who'll never actually get of their arses and do anything about, or bother to learn more about the things that piss them off.

I had one complete and utterly ******* shit day today. Eleven hours in school and a couple more ahead of me after tea (yes, we all have shit days I know). Broke up another fight. Was threatened. Spent a wasted hour chasing down colleagues for data I'm supposed to collate (that they'd f***ed up again). All in all, a shit day.

I'm not asking for a medal but just recognise that this can be one ******* thankless, hard bloody job that many of you either wouldn't touch with a barge pole or just couldn't do. I'm not even sure I can any more.

[oldrider]

I am suggesting that you are in no position to make the statements you made. If you are basing your whole argument on a few job applications within a specific industry you are at best misguided.

Of course not all teachers are not the same, equally not all poice, nurses, pilots, chefs, cleaners or shop floor managers in electrical and mechanical engineering industry enterprises are the same. However can you tell me how we make that judgement in teaching.
If my students obtain higher test scores than yours should I get paid more?
Will we consider the support at home the students recieve? Any underlying individual issues such as learning difficulties? The time of day the test was administered? Did the child have breakfast?
Should it be based on how much the BOT or community like me and not you?
Also if my students do not reach the required standard for me to move to a higher pay level can I blame you as the parent, for not supporting me enough as your childs teacher, and demand you compensate me.
Yes I know its sounds ridiculous but no more ridiculous than teachers recieving performce related pay, that is to anyone who has an understanding of education (and I mean education and not the education system)

Lets get away from the education system and the student results, they are distractions from the real issue that I was intending to comment upon.

I base my thoughts on discussions with my sister, other relatives and friends who are school teachers by varying degrees and their expressions of dissatisfaction with their lot.

Having been involved with conditions of employment, performance and remuneration myself, there never appears to be any similar system of recognition within education.

Every time it is discussed, it invariably comes back to the fact that they are on collective contracts and with collective remuneration grades, there is no recognition or reward for individual performance.

There have been attempts to introduce bulk funding and individual employment contracts with the direct managers but it always appears to be turned down mainly by the teachers themselves.

That to me is the equivalent of a drunk defending his bottle!

Let me ask you a question, do you know personally or even know the name of the person or persons' directly involved in setting your employment conditions and remuneration?

To me that is like riding your bike from the pillion seat with your helmet on back to front, you are not in control of very important decisions governing your life!

The further away from you that these agreements are made, the further away from a satisfactory agreement the resulting contract will be!

How can you build a relationship with your direct employer (manager/ department head) if neither of you can contribute to the conditions governing the contract between you?

That is the main thrust of what I was trying to say in my post, granted I may not have used the most endearing terminology but that is what I was intending.

Employment agreements are far too important to be giving the responsibility away to unknown, lesser qualified people to decide in obscurity for equally obscure objectives!

That is the reason that I believe there are so many disgruntled school teachers just wishing there was something better for them to use their skills and training on, with clearly measured performance feedback.

Case in point, how would you like me and some other obscure, unknown person to settle your current collective contract for you, are you actually sure that I don't?

That really is my point.

Do not for a moment think that I do not appreciate the value of good teachers!

I do not however, subscribe to poor teachers receiving the same remuneration and appreciation, simply because they are on a "collective employment contract"!

[oldrider]

ukiwi. You're wasting your breath. The world's full of armchair experts who'll never actually get of their arses and do anything about, or bother to learn more about the things that piss them off.

I had one complete and utterly ******* shit day today. Eleven hours in school and a couple more ahead of me after tea (yes, we all have shit days I know). Broke up another fight. Was threatened. Spent a wasted hour chasing down colleagues for data I'm supposed to collate (that they'd f***ed up again). All in all, a shit day.

I'm not asking for a medal but just recognise that this can be one ******* thankless, hard bloody job that many of you either wouldn't touch with a barge pole or just couldn't do. I'm not even sure I can any more.

Hope things improve for you "soon".

Can you tell me how your employment at your school works? (no names or anything like that) How does the process work? Do you work for the Principal, the board etc?

Do they/you have any control/input over your agreement for conditions and/or remuneration, performance etc?

[doc]

This thread is about teacher only days. I still can't understand that with at guess, 4 x 2 week term holidays and 6 weeks at end of year. 14 weeks of the year teachers have no students . Why they need teacher only days. Cmon 70 work days off, holidays close to 100 days including weekends and they also get the stat holidays too.

[Bald Eagle]

This thread is about teacher only days. I still can't understand that with at guess, 4 x 2 week term holidays and 6 weeks at end of year. 14 weeks of the year teachers have no students . Why they need teacher only days. Cmon 70 work days off, holidays close to 100 days including weekends and they also get the stat holidays too.

You obviously know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the classroom. A general ratio of 8 hours preparation time per 1 hour of classroom delivery, plus endless admin reporting returns to govt for ncea and meetings / reporting to parents / marking etc. If you divided the actual hours worked by a teacher into their current salary they are working for well below minimum wage.

[Tank]

You obviously know nothing about what is required to actually deliver teaching in the classroom. A general ratio of 8 hours preparation time per 1 hour of classroom delivery, plus endless admin reporting returns to govt for ncea and meetings / reporting to parents / marking etc. If you divided the actual hours worked by a teacher into their current salary they are working for well below minimum wage.

I think your ratios are out - given say a 5 hour teaching day - you are saying that they need a 40 hour week to prepare for a single day. So thats 5 weeks prep for every actual week at school. Lets say they teach for 35 weeks per year - thats 210 weeks per year (including classroom delivery - and thats without the extra work you mention.

210 weeks at 40 hours per week is 8400 hours. Divide that into a 52 week year then thats 161 hours per week - given that the teachers must work 7 days a week all they have to do is work 23 hours per day (plus all the other work you mention).

I hope you dont teach maths.