The AA are lying about us.

[shrub]

Now every so often (about every 50,000 kms it would seem) I stuff up and it costs me, both in pain and money.

But no matter whose fault it was, it is ALWAYS my responsibility to ensure MY own safety.

How hard is that to understand?

Ouch - an off every 50,000 kms - that would put me off motorcycling.

I agree, ultimately I have the primary responsibility for my safety, but that does NOT absolve other road users and those who make and maintain our roads from their role. Saying "it's not their fault they're idiots/don't consider my safety" is half the reason we run the risks we run as riders. I don't like that the roading system is oriented towards 4 wheeled vehicles, often placing bikers at risk, and I'm not willing to sit back and say "oh well, that's just how it is".

Idiotic articles like the one in question display an attitude from above that motorcyclists are their own worst enemies, and it's an attitude that's exacerbated by attitudes like yours and Katmans. Yes, we are ultimately responsible for our own safety, but should we passively sit back and allow poorly designed and maintained roads to significantly increase the risks we face? Should we just take it on the chin and accept that driver training and skill levels in this country are appalling and place us at risk? Is it perfectly acceptable that a great many car drivers have absolutely no idea about how to drive around us, or that their behaviour can unwittingly place us in danger?

Is "sorry mate, I didn't see you" now an acceptable excuse? Is the response to that now "that's OK mate, it wasn't your fault".

I'm sorry, I don't think it is. Just like it's my responsibility to be safe in my home, I would not accept a society where to be safe in my home I had to have safety glass, burglar bars and a shotgun under my bed, so am sick of accepting roads and traffic that are not safe for me, my son on his bike or my daughter on her scooter. I'm sick of hearing about learners being skittled because they didn't have a highly developed spidey and I'm sick of hearing about bikers getting killed and injured because there was unmarked gravel in the middle of a corner or the motorist didn't realise they were so close when they pulled out. Just a few months ago a young guy was killed because a truck driver saw his light and pulled out anyway - that was not OK.

I accept that there is a tendency these days to think all that's perfectly acceptable because nobody else is responsible for our safety, but I don't. And I'm not willing to accept organisations like the AA promulgating a message that motorcyclists are the problem. I'm happy to do my bit (and not having had an off since the early 80s is my reward), but I'm not the only person on the road and it's time the other people involved in my safety were made to take a little more responsibility.

[riffer]

Good response.

I'm not suggesting at all that we make an excuse for others' poor behaviour.

My point is, at the end of the day, I'm still the one that gets hurt. So it behooves me to ensure maximum responsibility for my own safety. I get irritated by people suggesting it's everyone else's job to keep them safe.

Let's educate the public. Let's also stop kidding ourselves that we aren't also to blame.

Everybody needs to smarten up.

[Katman]

but should we passively sit back and allow poorly designed and maintained roads to significantly increase the risks we face? Should we just take it on the chin and accept that driver training and skill levels in this country are appalling and place us at risk? Is it perfectly acceptable that a great many car drivers have absolutely no idea about how to drive around us, or that their behaviour can unwittingly place us in danger?

Of course we shouldn't sit back and accept any of that.

But until we are seen in a different light by the powers that be, no amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth will make the slightest bit of difference.

In order to be taken seriously we need to be seen as a body of people who are worth listening to seriously. At the moment it is far too easy for the general public and the powers that be to focus on the idiots amongst us.

In order to bring about a solution you must first address the root problem.

[Katman]

And I'm not willing to accept organisations like the AA promulgating a message that motorcyclists are the problem.

I would dearly love to have the opportunity for you and I to sit down with Berries and study each motorcycle fatality in order to work out who had the greater degree of responsibility in the accident.

You would be in for a rude shock.

[davereid]

Of course we shouldn't sit back and accept any of that. But until we are seen in a different light by the powers that be, no amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth will make the slightest bit of difference. In order to be taken seriously we need to be seen as a body of people who are worth listening to seriously. At the moment it is far too easy for the general public and the powers that be to focus on the idiots amongst us. In order to bring about a solution you must first address the root problem.

The only thing TPTB will ever notice is that motorcyclists have more accident injuries than car drivers, and that it is getting worse.

With all the modern technology being bunged into cars, it will not be long before a person of normal health can walk away from the worst accident that his computerised car will let him have.

Volvo have already promised a car so safe you wont be able to die in it, by 2015.

Do you see any of the motorcycle manufacturers making such a claim ?

I have more chance of winning lotto than dying on my motorbike.

Even when they make a Volvo that I can't die in, I'll cheerfully putt down country roads on a sunny day, helmetless, in my jeans and black singlet, just for fun.

Taking a tiny risk, to improve my enjoyment of my life.

And I'll curse the know-it-all-bastards, who have inflicted me with helmets, ATGATT, annual training, 10 year learners licences, and discouragement taxes .

Cos, after doing it all, they will discover, motorcycles aren't any safer than when they started.

[Katman]

Cos, after doing it all, they will discover, motorcycles aren't any safer than when they started.

That's absolutely right.

The greatest way to make a motorcycle safer is by improving the attitude of the person riding it.

[shrub]

Let's educate the public. Let's also stop kidding ourselves that we aren't also to blame.

Everybody needs to smarten up.

That's exactly where I'm coming from. Personally I minimise risk when I ride because that is the best way I know to keep my bike safe and avoid pain and hospital food. It is in all of our best interests to ride carefully because there really are no good sides to binning your bike - the last time I came off my bike I was stationary (foot slipped while a pillion was getting off) and it still cost me a bloody fortune. And humilated me.

I think there is a problem with a lot of rider's behaviours because they don't realise their limitations. I also have a problem with much of the advanced rider training as most of it seems to be riding as fast as possible around a race track, and so you get someone who does a couple of courses, learns how to go fast around corners and then rides the Akaroa GP every weekend looking for takers. I've been riding around 20 years if I take out a couple of periods when I wasn't able to (small children etc), and I know that riding fast is frequently not riding well.

Or they get caught up in the red mist of "showing that turkey" how to ride - I followed a twat in a Harley down a windy road on a Triumph 1050 Tiger. He wanted to stop me passing (I understand that would have meant my penis was bigger), so was all over the road, sparks were flying up from grinding metal and he had a frikking pillion!

We have a lot at stake, so I think for us it comes down to education and attitudanal changes, and they should be successful with the right approach because none of us like crashing.

But we share the roads with others and a significant proportion of motorcycle crashes are caused by other people, so we need to get the other stakeholders involved in the dialogue. We need the authorities and other road users to see that they are a part of the problem too, and that there are no benefits to anyone from being a part of a bike crash. A few years ago my son was riding home from work on his prized CBX250 and a woman turned across the road in front of him. She was fined, had to pay reperation, lost her license and felt like crap. She almost paid as much as he did for her stupidity and she sent him a get well card saying "I will never make that mistake again".

But as long as the authorities, and I include the AA in that, don't recognise that motorcycle crash rates are frequently (and even 20% is too frequent for my tastes) caused by car drivers or by avoidable road conditions like unmarked grit we're fighting a losing battle. We can all become exemplory riders, but we will still be taken out.

[MSTRS:Me]

Everybody needs to smarten up.

Yes.

I liken this situation to driving/riding in general...
Most people have a car. Most of them park it in their driveway or garage. Most have to back out to get to the road. Most have to cross a footpath before reaching the road. Most look for pedestrians/kids on bikes before crossing the footpath. Usually, there's no-one there. Over time, the driver backs out faster and starts to look for road traffic instead. Then, one day...

Complacency. It's a killer.

[shrub]

Of course we shouldn't sit back and accept any of that.

But until we are seen in a different light by the powers that be, no amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth will make the slightest bit of difference.

In order to be taken seriously we need to be seen as a body of people who are worth listening to seriously. At the moment it is far too easy for the general public and the powers that be to focus on the idiots amongst us.

In order to bring about a solution you must first address the root problem.

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. In my experience there are very few riders who ride dangerously or stupidly and I think expecting the ones who don't to toe the line and behave is like expecting boy racers to buy Priuses and be home in bed on a Saturday night. It ain't gonna happen, so we'll be waiting forever, and that gives us an excuse to say "when every biker behaves we can start expecting the other stakeholders to participate", and do nothing but whine.

The root problem is that we don't have a voice. What we need is to be taken seriously as a body is to become a body with credible spokespeople, we need to know our stuff and we need to have a common voice. At the moment BRONZ is all we have, so maybe that's where we need to start.

[Katman]

But as long as the authorities, and I include the AA in that, don't recognise that motorcycle crash rates are frequently (and even 20% is too frequent for my tastes) caused by car drivers or by avoidable road conditions like unmarked grit we're fighting a losing battle.

Your first four paragraphs could have been written by me.

But surely if 20% is too frequent for your tastes then 80% must totally blow your mind.

[avgas]

http://www.aa.co.nz/aadirections/dri...Our-Roads.aspx

I think you missed the key point in that whole document....

Story by Peter King

So holds as valid as the latest Shrek movie.
Is not an "article" its a "story"......so nothing needs to be referenced, or for the matter true

[shrub]

Your first four paragraphs could have been written by me.

But surely if 20% is too frequent for your tastes then 80% must totally blow your mind.

that's what I've been trying to get through to you - I agree with you for the most part, the difference is I see the problem as extending beyond rider behaviour.

The 80% is far too high, but what do we do about it? Lecturing and ranting achieves nothing beyond alienating the majority of motorcyclists.

As a marketer I believe we need to adopt a more holistic approach and we need to engage in social marketing to enact behaviour change; and for that to happen we need to have that common voice and a central body that can be funded and resourced. We need to show bikers that we're working on the other factors that influence their safety, and we need to show the other stakeholders that we're taking responsibility ourselves.

[Katman]

As a marketer I believe we need to adopt a more holistic approach and we need to engage in social marketing to enact behaviour change; and for that to happen we need to have that common voice and a central body that can be funded and resourced. We need to show bikers that we're working on the other factors that influence their safety, and we need to show the other stakeholders that we're taking responsibility ourselves.

I'm with you 100% on that.

[dipshit]

As a marketer I believe we need to adopt a more holistic approach and we need to engage in social marketing to enact behaviour change; and for that to happen we need to have that common voice and a central body that can be funded and resourced. We need to show bikers that we're working on the other factors that influence their safety, and we need to show the other stakeholders that we're taking responsibility ourselves.

But the PR spin that the likes of BRONZ have been feeding the public is actually been the lie.

They repeatedly told the media and anybody else they could that "most motorcycle accidents are caused by car drivers" to gain sympathy from authorities and the public.

Even motorcyclists fell for the spin. Some even regurgitating it themselves to the media...

http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/78...-crashes-rider

"The accident statistics were "bent" and he said it was usually car drivers who caused accidents and motorcyclists who were injured."

http://www.odt.co.nz/your-town/wanak...otorcycle-club

"Most accidents are caused by car drivers on phones, not looking properly or being complacent."

It simply isn't true.

No doubt it does come as a surprise to many riders when they read the likes of this below and they do have trouble believing it.


"There were about 43 motorcyclist deaths, of which motorcyclists themselves were responsible for 35. Car drivers were responsible for four. Young men and men in their 40s and 50s predominated."

http://www.aa.co.nz/aadirections/dri...Our-Roads.aspx


"Police say that, unusually, all 11 of the fatalities since last September were the fault of the motorcyclist. In the five cases where other vehicles were involved, the drivers of those vehicles were not at fault."

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...sparks-tension

The trouble with the spin from BRONZ is that motorcyclists develop an attitude that their shit doesn't stink and it's everybody else's fault so they don't need to look at their own riding habits and make improvements... so the status quo continues.

And when the general public does wake up to what is actually going on, any sympathy towards us could be lost.

Then look out for the authorities coming down hard on us.

[Big Dave]

The people at BRONZ work diligently to promote responsible riding and volunteer their time to provide safety courses that are endorsed by Ulysses to HOG to ACC who provide vouchers. Average folks working democratically, transparently and in good faith.

The poster's statements regarding subterfuge or misleading are simply absurd.