Aftermarket wheels for new National SUPERBIKE rules

[Robert Taylor]

So you're saying that hitting a bump with a wheel of any sort needs no involvement with suspension?
If you want to talk physics...............do you not think that forces applied to a lighter wheel are any different than a heavier wheel? Something has to control those forces.......its called suspension.........and the better you can tune that control then the better everything works in harmony.

Mate I think the rims are bloody nice, and was maybe the 1st person in NZ to have some, but the ship has sailed on them being allowed. Unfortunately most bikes come with a free set of rims attached, so then that reduces costs (and thats what NZ needs) in that less purchases are needed.

No one is disputing that light rims are better...........good on you for getting another bike and rider on the grid

Well said Tony. Facts were presented including the problem with wheelie control. Acknowledgement of the technical advantages of super lightweight wheels was also agreed upon.
But the fact of the matter is there are very few Superbikes on the grid and the addition of Superstock 1000 will possibly dilute that grid number even further. Add yet another significant cost and it will dilute further.
No emotion, stated how I see it and even the major motorcycle distributor was gunshy about the extra cost dimension, exacerbated further that as the distributor their landed cost on oem wheels is somewhat lower than dealer cost or full retail. So significantly more expense for them given mutiple wheels required!!!!!
Having been in this market a long time and at all levels I think I might have a significant appreciation of what people can and cannot reasonably afford in what is a low wage economy with an absence of large numbers of well heeled sponsors.
Very experienced and fast racers with no axe to grind ( eg Suglite ) have also stated it as they see it, thats grass roots opinion from non distributor backed riders who had they the means would perform very respectably in Superbike.
And to those who sniped about ''constant fiddling'', nothing wrong with that if you have the inclination to do so. Decades ago you just added preload and poured ''golden syrup'' into the forks because the tyres had no grip and the engines had no power, so the suspension wasnt challenged in the same way. ( and none of us knew anything about suspension ) But the world has moved on and if you watch WSBK / MotoGP the commentators are always talking about the setup of the bike. This is 2010 and the setting window for bikes and their tyres to perform at optimum is very very narrow.
Suspension setup is where you find the laptimes, whether you race in NZ, Australia, formerly Great Britain or Timbuktu. Stock suspension is also the biggest single impediment to precise chassis control, laptimes and maximising grip and tyre longevity. Well known facts the world over.
Dont get me wrong I love engineering to the nth degree and Id love to sell 20 -30 Superbike fork sets per year. As would selling super lightweight wheels, and for the record Ive had lots of experience with these in the past, here and in the UK.
But to repeat yet again, the class has to not be beyond the affordability of at least some privateers and distributor backed riders. Distributors have cut their budgets again this year, it looks like one has dissappeared completely and the other one who back Tony Rees is only there but for the grace of God. The Ohlins suspension that Tony is using is on long term loan from ourselves. That is the state of a market that is at its lowest level since 1962.

[malcy25]

After 16 pages and 235 posts, I think the "for's'" are missing a point.

fact: No one dispute that a set of light wieight wheels will be a performance advance and that has been the crux of most of the arguement put forward by the "fors" .
However: and the truth in reality is that MNZ said no, and most of the racers here have agreed with it for various reasons.

The "againsts "are NOT arguing against the performance increase that they will provide (they may however dispute the level provide, but will all agree they will be beneficial), but

If we all went and bought light weight wheels, NO ONE i(except the guys selling the kit wherever it is bought) is any better off performance in a comparitive sense, though our wallets will be because they'll be super lightweight!

Guys, we all know they'll provide a nice bike to ride, no question. But banging on about it and that the sky is now going to fall in because light wheels are so much better for us, won't work.....In New Zealand we have had FIM spec superbikes, open Formula 1, Formula 2, 250GP, 350GP, 500GP etc - where are they now? They disappeared up their own bum because they essentially became either irelevant, or no one could afford to run or procure the bikes anymore.

Std wheels keeps us all on a level playing field - given the relatively stock bike classes we have and the level of expenditure, to me it seems like a common sense decision. There's an old saying "Horses for Courses" that seems to apply here.

If you believe adding a set of light wheels into the mix will launch new riders into Internaitonal stardom "You're Dreamin'" to paraphrase a TV advert.

Frankly they would be better off with a new passport and a tried to Kenny Roberts ranch given that the entry level classes they WILL get into or could afford to buy a ride (100k pounds to buy a top ride in BSB supersport I hear), and they'll still be on stock rims....same in AMA, and even WORLD SUPERSPORT.

Thank youir for your time everyone. Now, as you were. Post count is probably 240.

Malcy

[Shaun]

Thanks Quasi ya tosser


This thread has killed a few hours with huge amusement for me, hope others have enjoyed it as much

[Shaun]

SOMOONE PLEASE


How, when, who, started using Suspension as the comparism here? Was it some one that rides slow on standard suspension perhaps

Great sales man work, Rubbish another product, to promote your own

hahahahahaha Good work boys

[malcy25]

Thanks Quasi ya tosser


This thread has killed a few hours with huge amusement for me, hope others have enjoyed it as much

Yup! (don't look now but I agreed with Shaun!)

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

What is required is Engineering Science - Facts - The Basic Facts Of Physic's.

Tell me this - Why Do Racers the World Over Use Forged Pistons, Con Rod,s Crank Shafts, wheels and such like??

I'll tell ya why!!! - Because The Increase In Strength can be by Factors of three or more, and the reduction in rotational Mass can be as much as 40+% Lower than OEM Cast Materials of the same nature - EG Steel With Steel or Alloy with Alloy of the same Grade & Type.

So the Laws of Motor Cycle Rotational Mass are the same when it comes to the Wheels - Take 6kg's out of your wheels and perhaps we can safely say you have taken 18kg's Off the Sprung Chassis.

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.

So when you allege and air your 'Opinion' that Lighter Wheels Have Less Significance than an Ohlins you simply express your lack of knowledge of the the Performance Dynamic's of a Motorycle Rolling Chassis and its ability to deal with the Surfaces it travels over & in the case of Raqcing Motorycles at considerable speeds.

I agree that Chassis Dynamic's as controled by your Ohlins still has to be Set Up For Each Track, but its overall performance will be greatly Enhanced by increased Track Lap Times Because of the use of Lighter Wheels with their Centre Of Mass Located as in teh Case of the Carrozzeria Forged Alloys Very Tightly Around the Axle Hub which Impacts the Moment Of Enertia of the Wheels.

Heightened Performance Comes from the Reduction of Effort (Horse Power or Kilowatts) Required to Motivate the Wheels in the first Instance and Gyroscopic Forces exerted on the front wheel when turning in are Greatly Reduced (Gives a Reduction in Tyre Wear) to enable a Higher Corner Speed with greater Safety and Precision.

Then there is the fact that the Brakes are working at a lesser effort to slow the Rotational Wheel Wieght Down which Implies that the Rate of Deceleration Effort is enhanced which one again implies that the bike will decelerate quicker meaning that you can brake later and - bingo Go Around the Corner Faster and Bingo Maybe over a 10 lapper you get to Win The Race rather than a lesser result which is what I thought Racing was all about???

Help me here but this is not the Opinion of me as the Importer - Rather it is a Statement of Physic's & Engineering Scientific Facts.

So how'se that???

Tell me then "Why should my Forged Wheels be exlcuded when Ohlins and all the other Aftermarket Performance Parts Are Not."

Dollar For Dollar if you fit my Tri-R Race Grade DOT & JAL Approved Wheels to your race bike you will get a bigger Bang for your Race Dollar in One hit than any other way. This I beleive from my knowledge of Race Suspension Parts Costs is a Fate Compli.

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc

[White trash]

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc

Tell ya what else is quite awesome. All this quoting of "gyroscopic forces". If we're going to get technical (and someone else started it) there is no such thing as a gyroscopic or centrifugal "force". This was taught in 5th form physics.

[Robert Taylor]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

What is required is Engineering Science - Facts - The Basic Facts Of Physic's.

Tell me this - Why Do Racers the World Over Use Forged Pistons, Con Rod,s Crank Shafts, wheels and such like??

I'll tell ya why!!! - Because The Increase In Strength can be by Factors of three or more, and the reduction in rotational Mass can be as much as 40+% Lower than OEM Cast Materials of the same nature - EG Steel With Steel or Alloy with Alloy of the same Grade & Type.

So the Laws of Motor Cycle Rotational Mass are the same when it comes to the Wheels - Take 6kg's out of your wheels and perhaps we can safely say you have taken 18kg's Off the Sprung Chassis.

What does the Suspension actually do??

Well its sole purpose in life is to Deal with the "SPRING WEIGHT" of the Chassis and everything on it.

Therefore - What deals with the "UN-SPRUNG" Weight of the Wheels that spin at some hideous speeds and the only control over this Rotataional Weight is through the Tyres and the Steering Geometry of the Chassis.

So when you allege and air your 'Opinion' that Lighter Wheels Have Less Significance than an Ohlins you simply express your lack of knowledge of the the Performance Dynamic's of a Motorycle Rolling Chassis and its ability to deal with the Surfaces it travels over & in the case of Raqcing Motorycles at considerable speeds.

I agree that Chassis Dynamic's as controled by your Ohlins still has to be Set Up For Each Track, but its overall performance will be greatly Enhanced by increased Track Lap Times Because of the use of Lighter Wheels with their Centre Of Mass Located as in teh Case of the Carrozzeria Forged Alloys Very Tightly Around the Axle Hub which Impacts the Moment Of Enertia of the Wheels.

Heightened Performance Comes from the Reduction of Effort (Horse Power or Kilowatts) Required to Motivate the Wheels in the first Instance and Gyroscopic Forces exerted on the front wheel when turning in are Greatly Reduced (Gives a Reduction in Tyre Wear) to enable a Higher Corner Speed with greater Safety and Precision.

Then there is the fact that the Brakes are working at a lesser effort to slow the Rotational Wheel Wieght Down which Implies that the Rate of Deceleration Effort is enhanced which one again implies that the bike will decelerate quicker meaning that you can brake later and - bingo Go Around the Corner Faster and Bingo Maybe over a 10 lapper you get to Win The Race rather than a lesser result which is what I thought Racing was all about???

Help me here but this is not the Opinion of me as the Importer - Rather it is a Statement of Physic's & Engineering Scientific Facts.

So how'se that???

Tell me then "Why should my Forged Wheels be exlcuded when Ohlins and all the other Aftermarket Performance Parts Are Not."

Dollar For Dollar if you fit my Tri-R Race Grade DOT & JAL Approved Wheels to your race bike you will get a bigger Bang for your Race Dollar in One hit than any other way. This I beleive from my knowledge of Race Suspension Parts Costs is a Fate Compli.

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

And why have you singled out Ohlins? Your sponsored rider runs on a Penske and stock combination. There are a handful of other riders that use WP or works Showa. Theresa lot of K-Tech stuff in BSB, etc

[Shaun]

''The sole purpose of the suspension is to deal with the spring weight of the chassis and everything on it"

Would you care to elaborate on that statement? As its only one function of the suspension. How about the not unimportant function of it applying pressure to the tyres to maximise grip? Etc etc

Actually Robert, if some one was to fit light weight rear wheel to there Road bike, I think they would end up with more wheel spin, due to lack of weight on the road?

These light weight wheels started getting made many moons ago, when bikes, rims, chassis were shite, now that all the above has improved, it has slowed down the nessesity for them out there

If they were as great as the PR any one can read about them, would they NOT at least be on world SuperSport bikes at least, where apparently, MONEY in Not really a problem, UNLIKE here in New Zealand.

Having said that though, If the rules did allow them, I would find the money to at least test them again, it has been a few years now since I used light weight wheels, Like Carbon One's on the Britten, I was always asking for more weight in the front end, as it used to float around on the service, NOT Deffinately the wheel that was the problem, as we never got to test another option, due to the style of the Britten.

We did do a temp test of tyres on the Britten, and Tyres on a factory Ducati at Misano, same day, same tryes, same track, same amount of laps, the Britten was way less lower in temp?

Again, we thought the wheel weight option

[sugilite:Me]

Hi Dude - Everyone is Allowed to Have an Opinion, but that is about all it is "An Opinion"

An awefull lot of tech theory yadda yadda

Rock on & Race Hard - Choice is what it is all about & FACTS Oh Yea don't forget the Real Facts.
The Locc'n'Motion

OK, every standard shock on your average jap superbike that nz riders use (prob over 90% of the grid) will over heat their standard shocks in a handful of laps. What percentage of standard wheels have exploded from inferior metallurgy in nz? (I'll even accept an vauge estimate from you.) At least my opinion has come from actually racing a motorcycle, as against riding a text book.

Tell you what pal, put your facts where your mouth are. Get a standard jap thou, put your wheels on and a better than average racer, do a average over 15 laps, then put the standard wheels back on and put some quality suspension in and repeat exercise...get back to us with the results.

[Robert Taylor]

Actually Robert, if some one was to fit light weight rear wheel to there Road bike, I think they would end up with more wheel spin, due to lack of weight on the road?

These light weight wheels started getting made many moons ago, when bikes, rims, chassis were shite, now that all the above has improved, it has slowed down the nessesity for them out there

If they were as great as the PR any one can read about them, would they NOT at least be on world SuperSport bikes at least, where apparently, MONEY in Not really a problem, UNLIKE here in New Zealand.

Having said that though, If the rules did allow them, I would find the money to at least test them again, it has been a few years now since I used light weight wheels, Like Carbon One's on the Britten, I was always asking for more weight in the front end, as it used to float around on the service, NOT Deffinately the wheel that was the problem, as we never got to test another option, due to the style of the Britten.

We did do a temp test of tyres on the Britten, and Tyres on a factory Ducati at Misano, same day, same tryes, same track, same amount of laps, the Britten was way less lower in temp?

Again, we thought the wheel weight option

Its what I kinda eluded to before, add lightweight wheels and yes you do have to change the suspension but it realistically goes beyond that with Superbikes as wheelie control becomes the biggest headache. Little wonder that there are lots of electronic aids, that stuff is not there for show.

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=sugilite;1129825619]OK, every standard shock on your average jap superbike that nz riders use (prob over 90% of the grid) will over heat their standard shocks in a handful of laps. What percentage of standard wheels have exploded from inferior metallurgy in nz? (I'll even accept an vauge estimate from you.) At least my opinion has come from actually racing a motorcycle, as against riding a text book.


Maybe you will remeber, what brand of Light Weight Wheel exploded on Robert Dunlop at the Isle of Man neally killing him?

NO< THEY WERE NOT THE BRAND IN THIS THREAD

[Drew]

Ya right on there Choppa - So much Drivel Opinion and No Facts.

Where are the Innovators in MNZ & Road Racer's Fraternity that are thinking of the Future of KIWI Racers on the International Scene in the Premier Classes???

It seems that the typical Iconic KIWI Paranoia is that - Everything has to be Cheap!!! Oh & Good Quality Too!!

Since when has Racing Ever Been Cheap???!!!!

How do you attract New Blood & Sponsors if the Rules are just so far behind the International 8 Ball that we are fast becoming an Isolated Bunch of Backward looking Ideological Fundamentalits!

There are Plenty of Classes for Everyone to Race at their Affordability Level, but The Premier Classes - This should be the Area we promote NZ's Best Rising Young Talent to take the Leap Onto the International Scene.

With the kind of thinking on this Thread - NZ Racers will become simply Hixtorical Nostalgia.

I hate that thought with a vengance and the MNZ Leaders should be thinking of this rather than the sort of thinking that has been spued out in this column to date.



The Locco'n'
Motion.

Jeez man, and we were worried Marcus was making a dick of HIMself and you might not approve of it.

If one of our riders gets to the top here, and then goes AMA, he can ride on your wheels there and be on level playing field. But lets think it through a bit, how is it a problem that he hasn't used them here? No one else is.

There is no advantage to allowing them. We almost all buy our spare rims second hand from the net. Compete with those prices for everyone and you might be able to swing MNZ, I know for a fact you can't match $300-$600 a rim, so you might as well give up this particular crusade and save some face.

Drew

[Crasherfromwayback]

Tell ya what else is quite awesome. All this quoting of "gyroscopic forces". If we're going to get technical (and someone else started it) there is no such thing as a gyroscopic or centrifugal "force". This was taught in 5th form physics.

Dunno about you...but I think the forces of things spinning actually does greatly affect things!

Crank inertia could be called gyroscopic force no?

[White trash]

Dunno about you...but I think the forces of things spinning actually does greatly affect things!

Crank inertia could be called gyroscopic force no?

Nope. It's called just that, inertia. Hold ya spinning bycycle wheel by the axle horizontal and tell me which way the force is acting on the wheel. Thought so, there's only two. The force of gravity and the force of your arms holding the wheel up. Forces go in one direction, not every direction.