ATGATT. Why? It doesn't affect anyone else?

[MSTRS:Me]

Yes, but that's their choice, not mine. If I came to grief and noone wanted to help I have only myself to blame. I would feel no ill will to the people that just passed me by.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Where did I say anything about people stopping to help on the side of the road?

None of us have a choice when it comes to taxes (some of which will go to St Johns or DHB ambo service), or ACC, or any of the myriad 'little cuts' we all are lumped with. Your co-workers who have to do extra to keep your job going while you are out of commission, they don't have a choice. Your family and friends may have a choice whether to visit you in hospital, but not much of one really. And when you get sent home, still unable to do much for yourself, those that live in your house, or care about you, don't have much of a choice when it comes to doing your cooking, feeding you maybe, showering you, toilet etc.

That said, if you took all reasonable steps to protect yourself as far as gear etc was concerned, then nobody can really complain. But if you went out in shorts, t-shirt, padding basin (saying it doesn't affect anyone else) then we have the choice of saying "Fuck. What a knob." But that's about the only choice we have.

Again, because some are obviously hard of hearing, your choice/s do affect others to a greater/lesser degree. It is that simple.

[swbarnett]

and those that disagree are only doing so to be arguementative.

Please don't assume you know what's going on in another's head. You obviously do not understand my motivation.

[swbarnett]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Where did I say anything about people stopping to help on the side of the road?

None of us have a choice when it comes to taxes (some of which will go to St Johns or DHB ambo service), or ACC, or any of the myriad 'little cuts' we all are lumped with. Your co-workers who have to do extra to keep your job going while you are out of commission, they don't have a choice. Your family and friends may have a choice whether to visit you in hospital, but not much of one really. And when you get sent home, still unable to do much for yourself, those that live in your house, or care about you, don't have much of a choice when it comes to doing your cooking, feeding you maybe, showering you, toilet etc.

Actually, we do have a choice. Most of us choose to take what's handed to us without a fight. It may be Hobson's choice but it's still a choice.

That said, if you took all reasonable steps to protect yourself

Again we come back to the same point - who's to say what's reasonable?

Again, because some are obviously hard of hearing, your choice/s do affect others to a greater/lesser degree. It is that simple.

And again, I don't deny this. I never have.

[DEATH_INC.]

All these noble plights for freedom may have worked in the past, but here and now we need to pull our heads in and toe the line, so in the future we can have the chance to go back to the ways of old, it is our choice really.

[Jonno.]

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Where did I say anything about people stopping to help on the side of the road?

None of us have a choice when it comes to taxes (some of which will go to St Johns or DHB ambo service), or ACC, or any of the myriad 'little cuts' we all are lumped with. Your co-workers who have to do extra to keep your job going while you are out of commission, they don't have a choice. Your family and friends may have a choice whether to visit you in hospital, but not much of one really. And when you get sent home, still unable to do much for yourself, those that live in your house, or care about you, don't have much of a choice when it comes to doing your cooking, feeding you maybe, showering you, toilet etc.

If you have a crash with proper gear and suffer the same injuries do you think your family doesn't care? Using that logic motorcycles should be banned.

[swbarnett]

All these noble plights for freedom may have worked in the past, but here and now we need to pull our heads in and toe the line, so in the future we can have the chance to go back to the ways of old, it is our choice really.

You toe the line and become a voluntary slave. I plan to enjoy life like I never have before.

[jono035]

If you have a crash with proper gear and suffer the same injuries do you think your family doesn't care? Using that logic motorcycles should be banned.

To be fair, I think he meant that being injured affects your family and wearing gear is likely to lessen the chance of those injuries.

I generally think that gear isn't a substitute for riding defensively and staying aware of your surroundings (with a healthy helping of 'assume all cagers are actively trying to kill you), but the simple matter for me is: I had a small off, with better boots I might have avoided a broken ankle. Not wearing armored pants, I would have definitely had a very serious knee injury in addition.

Simple.

[yungatart]

Blah blah blah

We will have to agree to disagree then, won't we?

[MSTRS:Me]

And again, I don't deny this. I never have.

So why have you and others been flapping your gums about the evils of gear nazis?
That was never the point of this thread.

For the record, I wear ATGATT, but I'm not anal about it when just going for a wof (say). I do get 'upset' when I see the scooter brigade (un)dressed in Billabong's finest, helmet straps flapping in the breeze, for instance.
I am mindful that no amount of gear is a substitute for not falling off. By the same token, if I do fall off I want to have done what I can to mitigate injury. I do that for me, not for the common good. Whatever the reasons that others do/not wear ATGATT, if enough continue to not take such steps and are (more) hurt as a result, then we can all be sure what will happen.
Volunteer, or be volunteered. That is the only logical choice.

[Spearfish]

So why have you and others been flapping your gums about the evils of gear nazis?
That was never the point of this thread.

For the record, I wear ATGATT, but I'm not anal about it when just going for a wof (say). I do get 'upset' when I see the scooter brigade (un)dressed in Billabong's finest, helmet straps flapping in the breeze, for instance.
I am mindful that no amount of gear is a substitute for not falling off. By the same token, if I do fall off I want to have done what I can to mitigate injury. I do that for me, not for the common good. Whatever the reasons that others do/not wear ATGATT, if enough continue to not take such steps and are (more) hurt as a result, then we can all be sure what will happen.
Volunteer, or be volunteered. That is the only logical choice.

Your right. it could go so to far that the blubbemint could announce they want to ban black or low viz colours!!!

Huge outcry we want stats!

Thousands turn out for protests

Then they back down with the ministerial hero saying the listened to the sheeple and high vis vests are the compromise.

Yahoo we showed em!!

Or we could simply put just the fecken gear on.

[swbarnett]

So why have you and others been flapping your gums about the evils of gear nazis?
That was never the point of this thread.

The point of this thread, as has been pointed out to me, is to call a rider selfish for not wearing the gear. Is this not the word of a "gear nazi"? Of someone intolerant of another's personal choice?

I do get 'upset' when I see the scooter brigade (un)dressed in Billabong's finest, helmet straps flapping in the breeze, for instance.

I used to until I came to the conclusion that the only direct impact is to themselves and there's no point getting hot under the collar for something that's really none of my business in the first place.

Volunteer, or be volunteered.

What's the difference? It matters not if we restrict our own freedom for fear of TPTB or we let TPTB do it for us. Personally, I'd rather exercise my freedoms (and allow others to unharassed) while they still exist.

[jonbuoy]

Which is more dangerous - riding like a twat in full leathers or riding like a policeman in shorts and T shirt?

[MSTRS:Me]

The point of this thread, as has been pointed out to me, is to call a rider selfish for not wearing the gear.

To an extent, yes, but there's a subtle difference between riders who don't care and riders who justify their lack of gear by saying it affects no-one else. These people are only fooling themselves (and trying to fool others) if they really believe that.

What's the difference?

There's a world of difference in being able to do anything on your own terms...

[DEATH_INC.]

I plan to enjoy life like I never have before.

That seems just a shade selfish from where I'm sitting. Good luck to you.

[swbarnett]

To an extent, yes, but there's a subtle difference between riders who don't care and riders who justify their lack of gear by saying it affects no-one else. These people are only fooling themselves (and trying to fool others) if they really believe that.

Yes, but again we come back to the difference between direct and in-direct affect. If we worry about every little indirect affect our actions have on others we'd go mad. Until now I've spent my whole life doing exactly that. I've even considered giving up riding more than once because of it (and did for ten years). My passion for riding created an inner conflict between the "selfish" act of riding and my desire to please everyone around me. I have only recently resolved this by recognising that noone has the right to expect me to give up the things I love simply because they want to save me from myself and save themselves from the minor inconvenience of ACC costs and the risk of seeing me in agony.

Wearing the gear (or not) has a direct affect only on the rider.

There's a world of difference in being able to do anything on your own terms...

But you're not doing it on your own terms if you're only doing it because not doing it might lead to doing it becoming compulsary.