Two innocent people killed in police chase

[rustic101]

Firstly; condolences to the family and friends of the innocent victims. A needless death.

Sadly, and I bet most will want to give me a serve; the Police are just as culpable as the Offender is. I am not nor have I ever been a fan of Pursuits.

Greg O'Conner representing the Association and Paula Rose representing Road Policing will always deflect blame as much as they can. This was evident in the message the Area Commander Insp Johnston was stating, in fact over stating, in the news today.

Yes the Offender drove while disqualified (only established after the fact), had exceeded the posted speed limit by 30kph, failed to stop, Fled Police, then crashed, causing death and injury.

Police are consistently exaggerating facts. Most pursuits are not pursuits but rather ‘fails to stop’. The Pursuit Policy is very clear on this fact, yet over 76% of all recorded pursuits are not Pursuits at all. Whether it’s an 80 male driver doing 35kph and not stopping because he is not aware he is being requested to stop as he believes he could not have done anything wrong, to individuals who do not want to stop immediately until they feel safe to pull over due to roading conditions the likes of stopping on the harbour bridge or Newmarket flyover etc. Regardless most field staff call this a pursuit.

What’s the reason for initiating a Pursuit? If it is someone who fails to give way vs someone brandishing a weapon out of a vehicle? The actual issue happens with the pursuing driver, the red and blues go on the sirens blaring away and the foot hits the floor as hard as it can. The vision of the pursuing individual narrows and so too does the rational thinking. Bear in mind this happens in a very very short pace of time.

Even with Comms controlling the Pursuit the pursuing individuals fail to accept of understand the actual risks they are putting the Offender, themselves and other innocent people at. Other factors in this are that more and more pursuits are not being called in, and pursuing individuals are failing to acknowledge Comms, more so if they abandon the Pursuit.

The Justice system also needs to put up their hand as they are consistently slapping these naughty people on the hand up when sentencing Offenders after they have been involved in a pursuit. There is almost an incentive to give it a crack and get away.

There has to be a better way. Even though I dislike Pursuits I feel there is a genuine need, but only under certain criteria.

[Indoo]

Sadly, and I bet most will want to give me a serve; the Police are just as culpable as the Offender is. .

How so?

yet over 76% of all recorded pursuits are not Pursuits at all

Wheres your source for that very interesting figure?

This crash would still have happened more likely than not even had the Police pulled out of the pursuit almost immediately, this twat was not going to slow down or obey traffic lights just cos he couldn't see a Police car right behind him he's still going to go hell for leather till hes miles away. All not pursuing will do is encourage more of these idiots to do a runner and endanger more innocent people.

[rustic101]

How so?
Wheres your source for that very interesting figure?.

Unfortunately I'm not going to divulge the source however believe me its true.

[Bald Eagle]

The red mist comes when the lights and siren goes on. Having experienced it first hand it is a very real phenomena and one which many of our young Police lack the maturity to recognize and control.

There are very few situations that justify high speed pursuit, the direct risk and danger must be greater than the risk to innocent public of the pursuit, sadly this is seldom the case.

Modern comms and airborne resources and information sources render actual direct pursuit unjustifiable in the majority of case imho.

[NinjaNanna]

Can't agree with this, a real intrusion into the privacy of Joe Citizen.

We have adequate laws to deal with this sort of crime - end result Manslaughter or some such the real issue lies with those that enforce the penalties for these crimes - The courts.

Until our judiciary wake up and see that the Police are being placed in an unenviable situation and hand down judgements that actually create a deterrence, penalties that make such people realise the the consequences are two great these situations will continue.

Removal of property - the car regardless of ownership - incarceration - other loss of liberty or assets.

Sure the laws might be there and adequete if we as a society were willing to pay for their enforcement. You blame the judiciary but I think that's unfair, the judiciary can only send a limited number of criminals to jail simply because there are limited places.

There are only 2 ways to address this, spend considerably more on building and running prisons or spend considerably less on housing each prisoner so the budget can stretch further.

The other obvious approach is prevention by deterent. We could start with any vehicle driven on the road without a valid WOF or Registration is automatically impounded for 1month, and vehicle driven on the road without both a WOF and REGO is automatically crushed.

Any vehicle driven by a 2 time drink driving offender is automatically crushed regardless of ownership.

Any vehicle driven by a driver without a valid license is automatically impounded. If the driver is pulled over for a driving infraction then the vehicle is automatically crushed regardless of ownership.

Any driver that fails to stop under these new laws receives and automatic minimum jail term of 1 month.

Zero tolerance approach with limited cost to the state for enforcement.


So what would you prefer, heavy handed law and penalty or a little black box in the car that prevents the offences in the first place?

OR of course we could leave things exactly as they are, because no one has the balls to take the drastic measures that are required to fix our problem.

[NinjaNanna]

Really? card reader - $200. Installation - $200. Chipped driver's licence - $25. Compulsory @ WOF time - 2 minutes added to your WOF inspection.

Numbers and statistics made up on the internet? Most of them.

Exactly shouldn't be difficult or expensive. Most cars these days have an immobiliser linked to the central locking, shouldn't be hard to piggy back a black box on this to disable the ignition.

Award the development to a local kiwi software developer and electronics company. Shit, could probably build it from a smart phone.

[JimO]

Modern comms and airborne resources and information sources render actual direct pursuit unjustifiable in the majority of case imho.

i think you will find that most of the country doesnt have airbourne resources. The blame for these latest deaths rest soley with the driver of the car........hopefully he will die as well

[Motu]

These young idiots should get bikes - at least us motorcyclists can do a runner safely and get away with it.

[schrodingers cat]

Both of these options are kind of like slamming the gate shut after the horse has bolted. I'm not saying that I know what the answer is to stopping this shit from happening, or if it's even possible, but it's plainly obvious regardless of the consequences some people are still willing to run.

At least with the .303 option the genetic thread is broken...

[willytheekid]

Those poor people ...and the poor bloody cops involved, bet they are still suffering from watching that horrific scene unfold in front of them.
Couldn't believe the media spin on this either....the bastards should be supporting the cops...not the crim's!

Once again, innocent lives cut short due to some ignorant piece of shit...R.I.P our thoughts go out to their freinds and family

[MadDuck]

The red mist comes when the lights and siren goes on. Having experienced it first hand it is a very real phenomena and one which many of our young Police lack the maturity to recognize and control.

Were they young officers? I maybe missed that. It seems to me they are devastated about the whole incident which evolved within seconds.

[marty]

The red mist comes when the lights and siren goes on. Having experienced it first hand it is a very real phenomena and one which many of our young Police lack the maturity to recognize and control.

Nice comment - how do you suggest this doesn't happen?

There are very few situations that justify high speed pursuit, the direct risk and danger must be greater than the risk to innocent public of the pursuit, sadly this is seldom the case.

This does not appear to be a high speed pursuit. The events seem to have happened from a standing start

Modern comms and airborne resources and information sources render actual direct pursuit unjustifiable in the majority of case imho.

Auckland has the only helicopter operated by Police.


.........................

[davereid]

The other obvious approach is prevention by deterent. We could start with any vehicle driven on the road without a valid WOF or Registration is automatically impounded for 1month, and vehicle driven on the road without both a WOF and REGO is automatically crushed.Any vehicle driven by a 2 time drink driving offender is automatically crushed regardless of ownership.Any vehicle driven by a driver without a valid license is automatically impounded. If the driver is pulled over for a driving infraction then the vehicle is automatically crushed regardless of ownership.Any driver that fails to stop under these new laws receives and automatic minimum jail term of 1 month.

Its likely that our increased passion for heavy sentences is the cause of our current problems rather than the solution.

When stopping for a cop meant a Traffic Offence Notice, and a resulting (painful, but not debilitating) fine, virtually everyone stopped.

But when car impounding, roadside loss of licence, and massive fines arrived, the pain associated with stopping meant that fleeing seemed to be a viable option.

This built on itself. Young men soon established amongst themselves a "database" of successful escapes. Each of which was a serious win, as they still had their car, licence and a bundle of cash that they would not have had if they had stopped.

Our strict laws are the motive for bullet-proof young men to flee.

[JimO]

I

Our strict laws are the motive for bullet-proof young men to flee.

perhaps we should find out if they really are bulletproof

[BoristheBiter]

Its likely that our increased passion for heavy sentences is the cause of our current problems rather than the solution.

When stopping for a cop meant a Traffic Offence Notice, and a resulting (painful, but not debilitating) fine, virtually everyone stopped.

But when car impounding, roadside loss of licence, and massive fines arrived, the pain associated with stopping meant that fleeing seemed to be a viable option.

This built on itself. Young men soon established amongst themselves a "database" of successful escapes. Each of which was a serious win, as they still had their car, licence and a bundle of cash that they would not have had if they had stopped.

Our strict laws are the motive for bullet-proof young men to flee.

well if they paid the fines the peniltys wouldn't have to go up.
it was the drivers fault plain and simple.
no one made him drive. no one made him run. no one made him run through a red light.

all you lot sit on here and go on about, speed laws this, speed laws that so it has become accepetable to break the speed laws and try and get out of tickets, and with the hippy arsed do gooders letting these little fucks off it is no wonder it has got to this stage.