Pregnant women warned off Te Papa tour

**marie_speeds** · 14th October 2010, 11:45

In my culture pregnant women are forbidden from grave yards for spiritual reasons, don't want no nasty spirit getting attached to your bub on board and following you home. And whenever anyone leaves the cemetary they are required to wash hands, and once home change clothing. These are just accepted.
Oh and you should see what happens when you touch someone on the head without that person's permission....now that's funny

**Edbear** · 14th October 2010, 12:52

Originally Posted by MSTRS

That's a bit harsh. Anyone is free to 'identify' with what they see as their cultural/ethnic heritage.
It is the perceived enforcing of parts of that heritage on others that sticks in the craw of many of those others.

Good point! As a pure-bred New Zealander, of English, Scottish, Danish, Spanish and a touch of Irish heritage, I wonder which ethnicity would be of best advantage to me here and now...

Originally Posted by marie_speeds

In my culture pregnant women are forbidden from grave yards for spiritual reasons, don't want no nasty spirit getting attached to your bub on board and following you home. And whenever anyone leaves the cemetary they are required to wash hands, and once home change clothing. These are just accepted.
Oh and you should see what happens when you touch someone on the head without that person's permission....now that's funny

How do you feel about these "customs"?

**marie_speeds** · 14th October 2010, 13:04

Originally Posted by Edbear

How do you feel about these "customs"?

These are just some of them

sometimes it is very hard knowing/remembering what applies where. Having grown up with them, they become second nature. I am proud of my heritage and proud of my culture. In certain situations, family functions, funerals, weddings etc I often give friends a heads up on what's happening and what to expect. Nobody I know has ever had an issue with following whatever cultural rules I lay down and have always been highly respectful of my culture. I always tell them that after the formalities comes the fun. Friends are always happy to return because they know that is true. I continue with the customs and continue to educate my very "European" children on these customs. One always has to know where one has come from so that one may know exactly where they are going.

**MSTRS:Me** · 14th October 2010, 13:11

I agree it is good to know where one comes from. But I reckon it should be so that one can learn from past mistakes and not keep making them...

**avgas** · 14th October 2010, 13:55

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

Yes, I am aware of some people's interpretation of the word Pākehā. Why are people insulted by the use of a word that means non-Māori New Zealander? Should we therefore be insulted by the word "Māori" which means a Māori New Zealander?

Nope but there is that term
natives (one of the more polite ones)

Explain the simple concept.
How come you can call all non-Māori a word in your language, but they can't call you one in theirs?

On another note - tell me the exact meaning of Pākehā.
Are pacific islanders Pākehā?
Are africans Pākehā?
Are people from the congo Pākehā?

If I my Māori great-grandparents left NZ, my grandparents were born in UK, my parents were born in Mexico, and I was born in NZ..... am I Pākehā?

**avgas** · 14th October 2010, 14:04

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

"Tauiwi" is a term which does encompass non-Euopean origin and European origin New Zealanders - but I think that by the time that word gained credence and acceptance the concept may well be irrelevent as our high rates of intermarriage indicates that we will, at some point in the future, become one people.

This is getting closer to what I would like to see.
But what would you call a person, if they were from Aotearoa?

**HenryDorsetCase** · 14th October 2010, 14:31

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Which no-one believes anymore. Because there is no reality behind those particular superstitions.

The thing about superstitions is their origin. ALL of them started out as an event that 'someone' decided occurred because...
Often the outcome was less than desirable, so prohibitions developed to avoid that situation again. Depending on whether there was good reason (ie health related via hygiene), or perhaps just the idea caught in their imaginations, the superstitions became part of a group's culture.

It is a no-no for Maori to sit on a surface where food comes into contact with = health. Bare arses can leave some pretty nasty germs to contaminate what one eats. Still relevant today, even with clothing and (possibly) better medical treatment.

Origin unknown - but walking under a ladder is bad luck = personal safety. That bucket of paint tottering on the top, falls on you. Still relevant today.

Origin unknown - spill some salt on the table? Toss some of it over your shoulder, to keep the Devil away. Yea right.
(I'm guessing someone was attacked whilst eating with their back to a room. It caused them to spill the salt they were using, and they had the brainwave to toss some behind them into the eyes of their attacker. The attacker's sight was affected, and he was able to be over-powered)

Don't walk around a cemetery widdershins, at night. Cross yourself if a black cat walks in front of you. Who knows....

Trere's my point: (and I think the phrase "those particular superstitions" is a very telling one in this context).

If you let one particular brand or set of superstitious belief in, you have to let them all in: they are all equally incapable of rational explanation.

So, if we have publicly funded institutions not allowing menstruating women to touch their stuff, then we should allow female genital mutilation in the name of religion. And we should allow (nay, encourage) sexual molestation of minors by priests.

So here's what I think: You can, and you should, believe whatever you want to believe: things what go bump in the night, Jeebl died on the cross for your sins, whatever gets you through the night, or day. But if your beliefs or behaviour start negatively impacting others (or are used as instruments of oppression: for example, women, wear a burqua, or no, we dont send the females to school, or we expose them on the hillsides and god sorts them out) then, and only then, can, and should a civil society cry "enough".

And for my money excluding people from a publicly funded institution on this basis is wrong, and should not be tolerated.

Secular humanism all the way: do the right thing not because god told you to, but because its the right thing to do.

**HenryDorsetCase** · 14th October 2010, 14:32

Originally Posted by avgas

This is getting closer to what I would like to see.
But what would you call a person, if they were from Aotearoa?

"Cuz" ??

"Bro" ??

**Edbear** · 14th October 2010, 15:00

Originally Posted by marie_speeds

These are just some of them

sometimes it is very hard knowing/remembering what applies where. Having grown up with them, they become second nature. I am proud of my heritage and proud of my culture. In certain situations, family functions, funerals, weddings etc I often give friends a heads up on what's happening and what to expect. Nobody I know has ever had an issue with following whatever cultural rules I lay down and have always been highly respectful of my culture. I always tell them that after the formalities comes the fun. Friends are always happy to return because they know that is true. I continue with the customs and continue to educate my very "European" children on these customs. One always has to know where one has come from so that one may know exactly where they are going.

I find it interesting how many people are, as you, proud and defensive of their heritage and culture. It appears, from personal observation that this is mainly in non-European races. It seems, in line with that, that most if not all non-European cultures have such "customary" lives. As a Kiwi of no particularly dominant ethnicity I am not concerned so much with my cultural heritage, I'm more concerned with my life now and the future. I guess I haven't got anything worth preserving...

**HenryDorsetCase** · 14th October 2010, 15:08

Originally Posted by Edbear

I guess I haven't got anything worth preserving...

Absolutely, completely incorrect.

I am probably of the same ethnic background as you are: mongrel Scots and Irish but third generation new zealander on my fathers side and fifth on my mothers side.

So, "european" heritage: in no order but all important:

The Enlightenment
The Renaissance
Art
Music
Democracy
Germ theory
Science generally and in particular
The SCIENTIFIC METHOD
Agriculture
civil society
Lor
mathematics
literacy, literature and edumacation.

dont EVER acknowledge a cultural cringe because "Oh, I'm just a pakeha": Fuckin A, and we've a lot to be proud of.

(and before anyone else says it: As of course, do other cultures.

**Banditbandit** · 14th October 2010, 15:38

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Don't walk around a cemetery widdershins, at night. Cross yourself if a black cat walks in front of you. Who knows....

I wonder how many people today (In Godzone, not England) know which direction widdershins is ...

**Number One** · 14th October 2010, 15:53

Originally Posted by Korumba

Outside the square...

It would be a bit sad if a number of pregnant women miscarried after a visit to this exhibit...

I'm with you...it would be sad...especially as they would likely be going just to 'make their point' - probably even more likely for bad juju to be going down.

Frankly....you just never know - outdated or not your culture (or whatever)...I wouldn't mess with 'wairua' and if I was pregnant I would be stearing clear....and I'm just Bulgarian!

**HenryDorsetCase** · 14th October 2010, 15:59

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

I wonder how many people today (In Godzone, not England) know which direction widdershins is ...

it's a direction? I thought it was about people with deformed legs!

presumably left wards counter clockwise (on the same basis that sinister is left)

**Maha** · 14th October 2010, 16:20

Originally Posted by Banditbandit

We just like sleeping with each other - a natural human occurance - and soon we will all have both Māori and non-Māori ancestors ...

Ken Mair would argue that point, though he himself is half Irish and during the winter months is whiter than me.
At best, there are only part Maori left living in New Zealand.
I have to tick the European box on voting/census forms, they offer no other option.
But I am fully 100% Kiwi bro.
I have no need to fall back on or claim my Danish great grandfather or British grandfather.
Because I know exactly who I am.