Stabbed policeman left to die

[imdying]

And so will innocent people - or do you believe that anyone the cops shoot will be a criminal ?

I would like to think so, but Toaster tells us that they'll only have SECONDS to react, so it seems unlikely that all the training in the world is going to avoid the odd unfortunate accident. What sort of 'accident' ratio should we deem acceptable?

[Banditbandit]

You are missing the point. It is not about this particular case. It is about giving them the best chance to defend themselves and others in any future events whatever they may be.

And to answer you. If you were not there, how would you know? Only HE can answer that question. Noone else.

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All three were "out of the blue" and having guns would not have helped police in any of those cases ... and I would argue that those kinds of cases may become even more frequent - as crims shoot at cops first ...

If the cops go in with guns drawn., then they are more likely to shoot innocent people (tho' I would argue that there are cases were they do need to go in with guns drawn - and they do that anyway, with the Armed Offenders Squad ... we don't need new laws to let them do that ...)

[scissorhands]

OK then what makes a criminal then? what stops a criminal from offending? and what stops one from reoffending?

Black markets-drug money, chop shops, anger and parental anger regarding youth, domination, intoxication............basically a society produces criminal activity in the populace

Why does Sweden have many freedoms, unlike Saudi Arabia, and a very low crime rate?

[marty]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

that's all nice a cuddly, but what about in the meantime? It's taken decadeds to get to where we are, it is going to take just as long to get to the root cause and sort it out.

I have lost a friend to a firearm, and multiple colleagues to bad guys that have not had a firearm - the cops would probably still be alive if they had have had a gun, and the bad guy would be dead instead.

[scissorhands]

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All three were "out of the blue" and having guns would not have helped police in any of those cases ... and I would argue that those kinds of cases may become even more frequent - as crims shoot at cops first ...

If the cops go in with guns drawn., then they are more likely to shoot innocent people (tho' I would argue that there are cases were they do need to go in with guns drawn - and they do that anyway, with the Armed Offenders Squad ... we don't need new laws to let them do that ...)

spot on well said

[marty]

What causes people to do crimes is more to the point, and the area of concern.

Arming cops is like taking a pill to mask the symptoms, the CAUSE OF THE ILLNESS GOES UNDERGROUND AND COMES OUT STRONGER THAN BEFORE BECAUSE THE CONDITIONS WHICH GREW THE DISEASE ARE LEFT UNATTENDED

like it or not, the beatings will have to continue until morale improves.

[Banditbandit]

like it or not, the beatings will have to continue until morale improves.

Ironic or not .. that's the point ... if the beatings continue, then so will the current or increased level of violence in society ...

[imdying]

So if guns is only going to equal more guns, what can we do to keep our police safe?

[Banditbandit]

So if guns is only going to equal more guns, what can we do to keep our police safe?

Yeah ... I know .. that's the dilemma ... you're right - it's taken quite a few years to get to where we are today .. and making the required social changes will have a long term impact ... but no short term impact ...

If we increase the level of legal violence (arm the police, bring in the death penalty) then we will increase the level of criminal violence as well.

Increasing sentences doesn't work (except in the short term to get crims off the street) because crims don't consider the consequences of getting caught - or they accept the consequences .. and that doesn't stop them ... the jails end up costing us more (as they are now).

And increasing sentences continues the problems inter-generationally as fathers are removed from families (albeit for good reasons) for longer, producing more fatherless kids who are pissed at the system that put their father in jail ...

But if it's about letting cops protect themselves with guns, I believe it will actually mean more cop deaths - look at England - no regularly armed police and very few cop killings. Look at the USA - regularly armed police and cops killed at slightly more than 1 per day !

Which model suggests the best way to stop cops getting killed?

[Smifffy]

Black markets-drug money, chop shops, anger and parental anger regarding youth, domination, intoxication............basically a society produces criminal activity in the populace

Why does Sweden have many freedoms, unlike Saudi Arabia, and a very low crime rate?

I suggest the root cause is that there is a significant proportion of the population that has an innate sense of entitlement.

In other countries, people can have nice christmas displays etc in their unfenced front yards, without any concern that they will be interfered with. Here you can't even put out a pair of solar garden lights on the front lawn without having someone wander off with them. They may discard them a few houses down, but that's not the point.

Some people feel that they are entitled to take other people's cars, or enter their homes and help themselves to shit.

Some people think that their employment contract entitles them to a swanni and two pair of boots every year, regardless of whether they are worn or not, and by golly they'll take them.

In many of the (few) countries I have visited, the people that undertake these activities accept that they are trying to rip someone off. In NZ they appear to believe it is their right.

In fact I am overseas at the moment, and have been following the news online, it all seems so depressing lately, I hardly feel like coming home.

I encourage my hosts and people I meet to visit NZ, yet if they look at the Herald or stuff websites they are pretty much put off.

With this kind of press it will take more than a few hobbits to to drag in the tourist hordes.

[Katman]

Fuck the idea of giving police guns. Far too many of them couldn't be trusted with them.

Instead, lets get a justice system that hands out real punishment.

[Smifffy]

Instead, lets get a justice system that hands out real punishment.

Agree with this part.

[marty]

what like this guy's sentence? http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10694289

when the judge has a kid that gets sexually assaulted or raped by an HIV +ve man, he sure as won't be saying that the offending was 'occasionally degrading'

i'm fucking speechless

[scumdog]

In fact, the particulars of that case are not too dissimilar to other recent police attacks and shootings ...

The guy in ChCh, who also shot the dog - shot before anyone knew there were guns on the property ...

Jan Molenaar in Napier - was shooting before anyone knew he even had guns ...

The undercover in Auckland bugging a car late at night - shot before anyone knew what was happening ...

All were also unarmed so even the 'unshot' ones couldn't respond in kind to the gunfire.

And too many NZ cops are too trusting and not suspicious enough.

[Scouse]

You forgot about making sure that women are oppressed at every opportunity, including being stoned to death for 'adultery', as though they shouldn't be allowed to sleep with whoever they damn well choose to.
Old world/dark ages. There may way be a few things that the white man has left behind. There's considerably more that god fearing types have left behind.

There we go western civilisation started its big down hill slide as soon as woman got to vote.
The corect chain of command in the house hold disintergrated as soon as this happend. I'll bet money on the fact that in ten years time all woman will be lesbians.