9/11 conspiracy debate

[Maki]

my last post - i'm bored with you now.

we have been talking about the towers, then you drop AA flight 77 into the mix. the 'especially critical' is of the flying skill to crash into the pentgon, not the towers, as we have been debating (at your start) since page 1. i am yet to see concrete evidence of a 757 into the pentagon, but i have an open mind either way at this stage. what i don't dispute, or even question, is that hijackers overtook the cockpits of AA flight 11 and UA flight 175, and flew them into the side of the twin towers.

I thought we were discussing the pilot skills of hijackers, one of which is supposed to have hit the Pentagon, but never mind.

It just struck me that you admitted you were "suspicious" about the Pentagon.
Would you mind telling us why you are or are not suspicious about:

"George Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the World Trade Tower on a television in Booker Elementary School before going into a classroom to hear some children read. This is a strange story because there were no live broadcasts of this impact."

Air defenses that on any normal day would react to errant airliners failed to do anything.

An exercise that seems to have confuse/paralyzed air defenses was going on at the same time as the attacks.

Cell phone calls from airliners in 2001.

Alleged hijackers, still alive and well after 911.

Aircraft alleged to have been used on 911 to crash into building, still in use and registerd at least until 2005.

A steel frame building, WTC7 collapses into it's own footprint at or near free fall speed because it was hit by some debris.

BBC reported WTC7 collapsed before it actually did. (They are great reporters...)

An alleged hijackers passport appears intact from the WTC inferno.

Records in the Pentagon are destroyed and accountants are killed who could have helped shed light on the missing 2.3 trillion USD.

5 Israelis set up a camera on the other side of the Hudson river, videotaped the disaster and danced and cheered as it unfolded.

The evidence, steel from the buildings that collapsed was not investigated and analyzed but sent away to China and India for recycling!

Bin Laden in Afghanistan is running the show!

Bin Laden kindly destroyed buildings that needed to be demolished anyway.

Entities that made huge sums by selling airline stocks before 911 have never been identified and investigated.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It just goes on and on, and you are "suspicious" about the Pentagon! And I suppose all this other stuff makes perfect sense you?

[Quasievil]

I thought we were discussing the pilot skills of hijackers, one of which is supposed to have hit the Pentagon, but never mind.

It just struck me that you admitted you were "suspicious" about the Pentagon.
Would you mind telling us why you are or are not suspicious about:

"George Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the World Trade Tower on a television in Booker Elementary School before going into a classroom to hear some children read. This is a strange story because there were no live broadcasts of this impact."

Air defenses that on any normal day would react to errant airliners failed to do anything.

An exercise that seems to have confuse/paralyzed air defenses was going on at the same time as the attacks.

Cell phone calls from airliners in 2001.

Alleged hijackers, still alive and well after 911.

Aircraft alleged to have been used on 911 to crash into building, still in use and registerd at least until 2005.

A steel frame building, WTC7 collapses into it's own footprint at or near free fall speed because it was hit by some debris.

BBC reported WTC7 collapsed before it actually did. (They are great reporters...)

An alleged hijackers passport appears intact from the WTC inferno.

Records in the Pentagon are destroyed and accountants are killed who could have helped shed light on the missing 2.3 trillion USD.

5 Israelis set up a camera on the other side of the Hudson river, videotaped the disaster and danced and cheered as it unfolded.

The evidence, steel from the buildings that collapsed was not investigated and analyzed but sent away to China and India for recycling!

Bin Laden in Afghanistan is running the show!

Bin Laden kindly destroyed buildings that needed to be demolished anyway.

Entities that made huge sums by selling airline stocks before 911 have never been identified and investigated.

It just goes on and on, and you are "suspicious" about the Pentagon! And I suppose all this other stuff makes perfect sense you?

.................................................. .................................................. .........

[BoristheBiter]

.................................................. .................................................. .........

The capture of Osama, cool.
How do you get these photos so quick?
You must realy have good contacts.

[fatzx10r]

It just goes on and on

keep going

[onearmedbandit]

Watch out Maki, you're asking too many questions and the FBI and CIA will be aware of your actions. If you stop posting in this thread we'll assume you've been 'cleansed' and accept what you're claiming as factual.

[BoristheBiter]

Watch out Maki, you're asking too many questions and the FBI and CIA will be aware of your actions. If you stop posting in this thread we'll assume you've been 'cleansed' and accept what you're claiming as factual.

I somehow don't think it will shut him up.

[marty]

fwiw I lean towards a tomohawk sub-sonic cruise missile or drone aircraft (although in 2001 drones were not as advanced as they are now) hitting the pentagon - no warhead, just impact. I have my reasons why I think that, but I can't be fucked arguing it.

http://tinyurl.com/3bzcryz

I'm still waiting for Maki's aviation qualifications, but like any dyed-in-the-wool conspiricay theorist, asking multiple questions without really answering anything is ops normal.

[onearmedbandit]

[Jantar]

....

"George Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the World Trade Tower on a television in Booker Elementary School before going into a classroom to hear some children read. This is a strange story because there were no live broadcasts of this impact."

If you read the interview, and follow the timeline, where he was asked about this it is quite clear that he did see a plane hit the WTC before entering the classroom. Only it was the second plane he saw, but at the time thought it was the first.

Air defenses that on any normal day would react to errant airliners failed to do anything.

From the timeline: 8:24 A radio transmission comes from Flight 11: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport." It is believed Atta mistakenly held a button directing his voice to radio rather than to the plane's cabin as he intended. A few seconds later, Atta's voice says, "nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet." Air traffic controllers hear the transmission.

So why should NORAD be alerted when at the time the ATCs believed the (suspected) hijacked plane was returning to the airport. The situation could be dealt with on the ground.

However once a 3rd transmission is heard without any sign of the aircraft returning (Transponder turned off) we find:

8:34: A third transmission from Flight 11: "nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

8:34: Dan Bueno from Boston Center notifies the tower controller at Otis Air National Guard Base at Cape Cod of the hijacking of Flight 11. The controller directs Bueno to contact NEADS (Northeast Air Defense Sector), the northeast sector of NORAD.[1] The controller then notifies Otis Operations Center that a call from NEADS might be coming.[2] Two F15 pilots begin to suit up.[3]

So we see that NORAD reacted as soon as they were notified.

8:44: Flight attendant Amy Sweeney, aboard Flight 11, reports by telephone to Michael Woodward at the American Airlines Flight Services Office in Boston, "Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent... we are all over the place." A minute later, Woodward asks her to describe what she sees out the window. She responds, "I see the water. I see the buildings. I see buildings..." After a short pause, she reports, "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she says, "Oh my God, we are way too low.” The call ends with a burst of very loud, sustained static.

This is the first confirmation of a hijacking.

8:46: Two F-15 fighter jets are ordered to scramble from Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts, intended to intercept Flight 11. Because Flight 11's transponder is off, the pilots do not know the location of their target. NEADS spends the next several minutes watching their radar screens in anticipation of Flight 11 returning a radar contact.

An exercise that seems to have confuse/paralyzed air defenses was going on at the same time as the attacks.

Obviously not. Less than 2 minutes from confirmation of a hijacking to scrambling the fighters.

Cell phone calls from airliners in 2001.

And? Cell phones worked from jet liners back in 1986. The problem is that cell phone calls from aircraft trigger too many cell towers and use too much bandwith. IOW $$$$. That is why the use of cell phones from aircraft was banned, not for the reasons that airlines commonly state.

Alleged hijackers, still alive and well after 911.

Debunked: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_still_alive

Aircraft alleged to have been used on 911 to crash into building, still in use and registerd at least until 2005.

Still registered? Yes, that wouldn't be too unusual. But still in use? Now that one is a bit hard to believe. Please give some evidence eg a reference to aircraft log, or even a tech log would help.

A steel frame building, WTC7 collapses into it's own footprint at or near free fall speed because it was hit by some debris.


BBC reported WTC7 collapsed before it actually did. (They are great reporters...)

Already covered earlier in this thread.

An alleged hijackers passport appears intact from the WTC inferno.

Stranger things have happened. But from this event are you saying that a hijacker survived? Or just what are you claiming as a result?

Records in the Pentagon are destroyed and accountants are killed who could have helped shed light on the missing 2.3 trillion USD.

If an aircraft hit my place of work, I am sure that some records would be lost also. It just depends on what part of the building is hit as to what records are lost.

Plesae explain how records of some sort or other couldn't be lost in this type of incident?

....

"George Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the World Trade Tower on a television in Booker Elementary School before going into a classroom to hear some children read. This is a strange story because there were no live broadcasts of this impact."

If you read the interview, and follow the timeline, where he was asked about this it is quite clear that he did see a plane hit the WTC before entering the classroom. Only it was the second plane he saw, but at the time thought it was the first.

Air defenses that on any normal day would react to errant airliners failed to do anything.

From the timeline: 8:24 A radio transmission comes from Flight 11: "We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport." It is believed Atta mistakenly held a button directing his voice to radio rather than to the plane's cabin as he intended. A few seconds later, Atta's voice says, "nobody move. Everything will be OK. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet." Air traffic controllers hear the transmission.

So why should NORAD be alerted when at the time the ATCs believed the (suspected) hijacked plane was returning to the airport. The situation could be dealt with on the ground.

However once a 3rd transmission is heard without any sign of the aircraft returning (Transponder turned off) we find:

8:34: A third transmission from Flight 11: "nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves."

8:34: Dan Bueno from Boston Center notifies the tower controller at Otis Air National Guard Base at Cape Cod of the hijacking of Flight 11. The controller directs Bueno to contact NEADS (Northeast Air Defense Sector), the northeast sector of NORAD.[1] The controller then notifies Otis Operations Center that a call from NEADS might be coming.[2] Two F15 pilots begin to suit up.[3]

So we see that NORAD reacted as soon as they were notified.

8:44: Flight attendant Amy Sweeney, aboard Flight 11, reports by telephone to Michael Woodward at the American Airlines Flight Services Office in Boston, "Something is wrong. We are in a rapid descent... we are all over the place." A minute later, Woodward asks her to describe what she sees out the window. She responds, "I see the water. I see the buildings. I see buildings..." After a short pause, she reports, "We are flying low. We are flying very, very low. We are flying way too low." Seconds later she says, "Oh my God, we are way too low.” The call ends with a burst of very loud, sustained static.

This is the first confirmation of a hijacking.

8:46: Two F-15 fighter jets are ordered to scramble from Otis Air National Guard Base in Massachusetts, intended to intercept Flight 11. Because Flight 11's transponder is off, the pilots do not know the location of their target. NEADS spends the next several minutes watching their radar screens in anticipation of Flight 11 returning a radar contact.

An exercise that seems to have confuse/paralyzed air defenses was going on at the same time as the attacks.

Obviously not. Less than 2 minutes from confirmation of a hijacking to scrambling the fighters.

Cell phone calls from airliners in 2001.

And? Cell phones worked from jet liners back in 1986. The problem is that cell phone calls from aircraft trigger too many cell towers and use too much bandwith. IOW $$$$. That is why the use of cell phones from aircraft was banned, not for the reasons that airlines commonly state.

Alleged hijackers, still alive and well after 911.

Debunked: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Hijackers_still_alive

Aircraft alleged to have been used on 911 to crash into building, still in use and registerd at least until 2005.

Still registered? Yes, that wouldn't be too unusual. But still in use? Now that one is a bit hard to believe. Please give some evidence eg a reference to aircraft log, or even a tech log would help.

A steel frame building, WTC7 collapses into it's own footprint at or near free fall speed because it was hit by some debris.


BBC reported WTC7 collapsed before it actually did. (They are great reporters...)

Already covered earlier in this thread.

An alleged hijackers passport appears intact from the WTC inferno.

Stranger things have happened. But from this event are you saying that a hijacker survived? Or just what are you claiming as a result?

5 Israelis set up a camera on the other side of the Hudson river, videotaped the disaster and danced and cheered as it unfolded.

From http://www.911myths.com/html/dancing_israelis.html

What’s more, if you look at the full 20/20 transcript from which this story is derived, you find that Maria says she saw the van park after she’d been watching the WTC for a few minutes. And so they did not film the first impact. The report also talks about other issues involved with this story, so we’ve not snipped any of those and you should read the whole lot, however we’ve emphasised Maria’s testimony so that’s easier to pick out:

So, if you are claiming they had foreknowledge of the event, they sure bungled it by not being set up in time.

The evidence, steel from the buildings that collapsed was not investigated and analyzed but sent away to China and India for recycling! .

Some steel was analysed as shown in this peer reviewed study http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-3Draft.pdf

Bin Laden in Afghanistan is running the show!

Bin Laden kindly destroyed buildings that needed to be demolished anyway.


Entities that made huge sums by selling airline stocks before 911 have never been identified and investigated.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

It just goes on and on, and you are "suspicious" about the Pentagon! And I suppose all this other stuff makes perfect sense you?

It just goes on and on doesn't it. This is flimsiest case for a conspiracy I've ever come across.

[Jantar]

fwiw I lean towards a tomohawk sub-sonic cruise missile or drone aircraft (although in 2001 drones were not as advanced as they are now) hitting the pentagon - no warhead, just impact. I have my reasons why I think that, but I can't be fucked arguing it.

http://tinyurl.com/3bzcryz

I'm still waiting for Maki's aviation qualifications, but like any dyed-in-the-wool conspiricay theorist, asking multiple questions without really answering anything is ops normal.

The big question with the missile theory is "What happened to the passengers on the 757?

[Madmax]

http://www.infowars.com/red-alert-go...zen-for-years/

[Laava]

Far out! 18 pages! So to sum up;

1, Some planes may have actually or just appeared to hit some buildings in an impossibly difficult way!
2, Said planes possibly are still flying up until recently, passengers not necessarily accounted for.
3, Buildings hit and demolished don't tally up with number of planes that may or may not have been involved.
4, Buildings collapse in numerous, previously unknown manners and ways not necessarily related to the alleged plane/building collisions! High end explosives may have been placed to facilitate this by any number of groups or factions. Disgruntled postal worker?
5, Parties involved are mortal enemies collaborating together to achieve an unbelievably complex and far reaching outcome.
And
6, Some motorbike riders in New Zealand have cracked it and are onto them.

Have I got it right?

[avgas]

just like bikers really

Could be true - TopGun was just as shit as Torque.

[avgas]

just way cooler

Its the sunglasses and metrosexual outfits isn't it.

Pilots are so dreamy.

[marty]

The big question with the missile theory is "What happened to the passengers on the 757?

yeah i know. i've thought about that. haven't lost sleep over it, but thought about it on occasion. i just can't figure out why the FBI won't release the petrol station video though.