Osama is dead

[Banditbandit]

As far as I know Nelson Mandela has never been responsible for flying planes into buildings to make a point.

This is true .. However Mandela was imprisoned by the South African Apartheid regime because he was the leader of the Umkhonto We Sizwe - the armed wing of the ANC. He was charged with Sabotage and other charges and imprisoned for life. Umkhonto We Sizwe made its first Guerrilla attack in the early 1960s. The organization originally targetted sabotage .. but by the 1980s had moved to urban guerrilla warfare, bombing bars in Durban, etc etc ... a 30 year "terrorist campaign" against Apartheid. By the end of the 1980s the Apartheid regime was ready to release Mandela from jail - as long as he renounced the "armed struggle" .. Mandela never did ... but was eventually released to become the president of the new republic - a freedom fighter/terrorist if I every saw one ...

Yassar Arafat - PLO terrorist extraordinaire - renounced terrorism as the way forward .. and shook hands with one Egyptian President across the peace table ... still regarded as a "terrorist".

Mandela has become a world super figure - he never renounced violent struggle - Arafat renounced the struggle but the USA said "Never negotiate with terrorists" (OH, we are happy to sit down and eat with Mandela tho')

Eamon De Valera - leader of Sinn Fein in Ireland - was active in the Easter Rising - jailed for life by the British for life (commuted from the death sentence) - became the first president of the new Irish republic - Certainly looks like Eamon De Valera was a terrorist/freedom fighter

Menachem Begun - former Prime Minister of Israel. Former member of the Irgun - a Jewish terrorist/freedom fighter organisastion. Begun took an active role in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 - 91 dead and 46 injured (it housed, among other things, the British Military headquarters) .. and was the worst incident of bloodshed, killing more people than any incident in Jewish/Arab conflict - Begun got to be Prime Minister - certainly looks like a freedom fighter/terrorist to me ..

And on and on ... Terrorist or freedom fighter is largely a matter of perception and definition .. winning helps too of course ... all of the above were winners .. Bin Laden was a loser ..

[avgas]

As I said, the difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is only in the perceptions and labels.

I thought it was the hippie style clothing?
I aint never seen a terrorist with a hawaiian shirt, rose tinted glasses and an afro.

[Paul in NZ]

As far as I know Nelson Mandela has never been responsible for flying planes into buildings and killing thousands in the process just to make a point.

Thats a very silly comparison - the ANC had neither the opportunity, plan nor the need as their enemy was in the same country. However, just as with the IRA (who had domestic and off shore enemy), there was a heck of a lot of innocent blood spilt.

This just reinforces the idea that 'innocent lives' only matter if they are western and does your argument little good at all....

[slowpoke]

It's bloody funny how many people are prepared to jump to conclusions based on nothing but gut feeling or stick to pre-prepared convictions in the face of contradictory evidence. Forget the political studies students, it's the budding psychologists who will be having a field day with recent events.

For a laugh just go and plug "Saudi", "Bush", "Bin Laden" and "CIA" into your ol' friend Mr Google and have a read through some of the frankly quite scary dealings going on between them over the years. The whole thing stinks, and the suprise isn't that Bin Laden has carried out a vendetta against the US, the suprise is that he hasn't got more support than he has.

With knowledge of all the shonky dealings going on over the decades the last thing the US wanted was to bring him to trial, there was no question he needed to be silenced.

As for Pakistan being complicit in allowing OBL refuge, I just don't see why it's so hard to believe they knew nothing: if he arrived with a small "family" group or merged with an existing family, stayed within the compound (or preferrably indoors) during daylight hours then barring a house to house search how would anyone be any the wiser? It's simple stuff, and as long as he and his crew were disciplined/smart then it would be easy to keep him hidden.

[Banditbandit]

I thought it was the hippie style clothing?
I aint never seen a terrorist with a hawaiian shirt, rose tinted glasses and an afro.

That's 'cause the hippies had no balls and too much grass

(To the tune of Dylan's TImes they are a'Changing ...)

Come gather round people wherever you roam
And admit that the whole revolution is blown
'cause you'd rather sit round on your arse and get stoned
And the times they are remaining ...

The Weathermen on the other hand ... (Real US homegrown terrorists ...)

[BoristheBiter]

This is true .. However Mandela was imprisoned by the South African Apartheid regime because he was the leader of the Umkhonto We Sizwe - the armed wing of the ANC. He was charged with Sabotage and other charges and imprisoned for life. Umkhonto We Sizwe made its first Guerrilla attack in the early 1960s. The organization originally targetted sabotage .. but by the 1980s had moved to urban guerrilla warfare, bombing bars in Durban, etc etc ... a 30 year "terrorist campaign" against Apartheid. By the end of the 1980s the Apartheid regime was ready to release Mandela from jail - as long as he renounced the "armed struggle" .. Mandela never did ... but was eventually released to become the president of the new republic - a freedom fighter/terrorist if I every saw one ...

Yassar Arafat - PLO terrorist extraordinaire - renounced terrorism as the way forward .. and shook hands with one Egyptian President across the peace table ... still regarded as a "terrorist".

Mandela has become a world super figure - he never renounced violent struggle - Arafat renounced the struggle but the USA said "Never negotiate with terrorists" (OH, we are happy to sit down and eat with Mandela tho')

Eamon De Valera - leader of Sinn Fein in Ireland - was active in the Easter Rising - jailed for life by the British for life (commuted from the death sentence) - became the first president of the new Irish republic - Certainly looks like Eamon De Valera was a terrorist/freedom fighter

Menachem Begun - former Prime Minister of Israel. Former member of the Irgun - a Jewish terrorist/freedom fighter organisastion. Begun took an active role in the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946 - 91 dead and 46 injured (it housed, among other things, the British Military headquarters) .. and was the worst incident of bloodshed, killing more people than any incident in Jewish/Arab conflict - Begun got to be Prime Minister - certainly looks like a freedom fighter/terrorist to me ..

And on and on ... Terrorist or freedom fighter is largely a matter of perception and definition .. winning helps too of course ... all of the above were winners .. Bin Laden was a loser ..

And they all fought in THEIR COUNTRY OF BIRTH.

OBL was fighting a holey war, it has nothing to do with freedom and all to do with oppression.
I guess thats why Hone has so much in common with him.

[Banditbandit]

And they all fought in THEIR COUNTRY OF BIRTH.

OBL was fighting a holey war, it has nothing to do with freedom and all to do with oppression.
I guess thats why Hone has so much in common with him.

So you can read? It wasn't all Blah Blah Blah ????

Let's see de Valera was born in New York ... (so much for that one ...)

Begin was born in Brest in Russia ... (so much for that one ...)

Yassar Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt .. (well so much for that one too ...)

Only Mandela was born in the country he fought for (now you've learnt to read learn to get your story right)

But OK - I take your point .. but as I said, the Islamic world views itself in a more unified way than the west. The countries are creations of post-WW1 and 2 Europe ansd the lines on the map are pretty arbitrary ...

The holy war - yes, they frame it in that way. You have to remember that for the strong Islamic peoples the Enlightenment period of western thinking means little and they do not make a distinction between religion and politics - in fact the Koran, as it is written, lays out a whole society and social functioning. And I quite like it (Yes, I know what you are going to say but have you ever read the Koran? And not just listened to the crazies (on both sides) who use it for a justification for oppression and violence - especially of women ...

The Koranic society would be a fair and just society - I doubt there is any country in the world which actually follows all that the Koran teaches .. and the Moslem fundamentalists such as the Taliban certainly do not ..

[BoristheBiter]

So you can read? It wasn't all Blah Blah Blah ????

Let's see de Valera was born in New York ... (so much for that one ...)

Begin was born in Brest in Russia ... (so much for that one ...)

Yassar Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt .. (well so much for that one too ...)

Only Mandela was born in the country he fought for (now you've learnt to read learn to get your story right)

But OK - I take your point .. but as I said, the Islamic world views itself in a more unified way than the west. The countries are creations of post-WW1 and 2 Europe ansd the lines on the map are pretty arbitrary ...

The holy war - yes, they frame it in that way. You have to remember that for the strong Islamic peoples the Enlightenment period of western thinking means little and they do not make a distinction between religion and politics - in fact the Koran, as it is written, lays out a whole society and social functioning. And I quite like it (Yes, I know what you are going to say but have you ever read the Koran? And not just listened to the crazies (on both sides) who use it for a justification for oppression and violence - especially of women ...

The Koranic society would be a fair and just society - I doubt there is any country in the world which actually follows all that the Koran teaches .. and the Moslem fundamentalists such as the Taliban certainly do not ..

is was all blah so i had a few more beers.

So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut? you can't have it both ways. Unless you just like contradicting yourself.

[ellipsis]

So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut?

...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats and are fucked off with the 'infidel' for a thousand years worth of shit imposed on them...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...when he wasn't down at the bazaar, fingering silly white girls and getting relaxed with one of them hookah, thingys...

[slowpoke]

...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats and are fucked off with the 'infidel' for a thousand years worth of shit imposed on them...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...when he wasn't down at the bazaar, fingering silly white girls and getting relaxed with one of them hookah, thingys...

It probably helps you sleep at night but that's just bollocks.

Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.

http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm

[Winston001]

...he's really just/was a very very wealthy arab who was into the power trip, using the religious scripture of 'their', book to control a lot of mindless, poor peasants who eat sand and dates and goats

...if he was a really, really poor peasanty type, he probably would be following some one like himself...

Not really. Mullah Mohammed Omar the leader of the Taliban was a poor man who rose to be the Head of State of Afghanistan. Money doesn't make leaders, that requires intelligence passion and charisma - which Osama Bin Laden had.

Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.

http://www.hermes-press.com/BushSaud.htm

That is an interesting article with threads of truth but viewed through a lens of conspiracy. Nobody doubts the CIA support of the Mujahideen during the Russian occupation but what tends to get overlooked is the drug trafficing of opium by the Mujahideen which provided substantial sums. They were not simply propped up by outside influences.

Again, nobody doubts that the USA and Saudi Arabia have common interests and political stability in that country is a cornerstone of Middle East politics - and economics. Unfortunately SA is a very conservative Moslem nation and does not enjoy the freedoms we and Americans take for granted. Given the current turmoil in the region that could change very quickly but the West is nervous because oil supplies will get disrupted. $4/litre anyone?

[ellipsis]

It probably helps you sleep at night

...no,,thats rum...

[oneofsix]

Not really. Mullah Mohammed Omar the leader of the Taliban was a poor man who rose to be the Head of State of Afghanistan. Money doesn't make leaders, that requires intelligence passion and charisma - which Osama Bin Laden had.

Mullah Mohammed has a bit longer story than that. He was a religious teacher (Mullah). He was a war hero against the Russians. He retired after the Russians left. During the civil war that followed local leader's group raped a couple of young woman so the people went to him, he got a group of students together and rescued the woman, punished the rapists, took over the leadership of the southern tribe, which is a tribe that also occupies much of Pakistan. The Civil war was tribal which meant he was now at war with the other tribes. With tribal assistance from across the border he took over most of the country.

[Banditbandit]

is was all blah so i had a few more beers.

So what is he then? A freedom fighter or religious nut? you can't have it both ways. Unless you just like contradicting yourself.

See .. the two positions you lay out - either a freedom fighter or a religious nut are western positions - they are not mutually exclusive in other thought systems.

[Bald Eagle]

Here's a run down of recent US/CIA/Bush fiddling that should make anyone pissed off.

We all recognise that the good ole U.S of A is the self appointed playground monitor in the global sandpit.

Trouble is they act like a primary school bully when they don't get what they want.