Osama is dead

[Swoop]

11 May, 2011: The huge amount of electronic data retrieved from Osama bin Laden's Pakistan hideout has yielded many surprises. One of them, that has been leaked, was that bin Laden was more involved in the planning and direction of al Qaeda operations, and Islamic terrorism in general, than had been thought. During the last decade, it was assumed that bin Laden's second-in-command, Egyptian Ayman al Zawahri, was increasingly running things. Not so. This is not surprising. It's been discovered in the last few years that al Zawahri is rather gruff and hard to get along with. Compared to bin Laden, al Zawahri is heavy handed and not as good at playing the media. Bin Laden appeared to have a more realistic view of where al Qaeda was (in a bad place) during the last decade, and where it was headed (a worse place.) Bin Laden was apparently the one pushing for less terrorism in Iraq five years ago. The massive slaughter of Moslems (even if they were Shia) by al Qaeda in Iraq eventually turned the Islamic world against al Qaeda. Bin Laden was more aware of this than most other senior al Qaeda leaders.
Eventually, the al Qaeda boss in Iraq was removed (via an American smart bomb), and it's long been suspected that the targeting information for that hit was leaked to the Americans on bin Laden's orders. Since the defeat of al Qaeda in Iraq, there has been a shift in tactics, away from killing lots of civilians, and more towards focusing on security forces, especially non-Moslems. This has been unpopular with the al Qaeda foot soldiers, because Western troops are very hard to kill, and too easy to get killed by. Moreover, one of al Qaeda's beliefs is that any Moslem killed during a bombing, who didn't want to be, was simply an "involuntary martyr." While nice in theory, the families of these involuntary martyrs hated al Qaeda for the honor, and bin Laden picked up on this more than al Zawahri.

Bin Laden also provided a lot more encouragement for carrying out terror attacks in the West. That has been difficult because of the massive counter-terror efforts in the West, and the growing unpopularity of Islamic terrorism among Moslems in the West. Bin Laden's documents are probably yielding indications of where al Qaeda was headed, at least according to the founder. Actually, the data analysis tools available to Western intel agencies are capable of detecting patterns of thought and intent in those documents that bin Laden was probably not consciously aware of. Eventually, there will be some interesting books coming out of all that.

[jonbuoy]

Tibet, within the Chinese borders by invasion, not choice. How do the millions killed by Stalin miss out on this discussion, all and the invasion of Afghanistan by the Russians. I suppose the Koran and Vietnam wars are the American's fault as well.

There was a scuffle in the forties as well - some guy Hitler I think his name was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_death_toll

Wiki quote

It may be pointless to try to establish which World War Two Axis aggressor, Germany or Japan, was the more brutal to the peoples it victimised. The Germans killed six million Jews and 20 million Russians [i.e. Soviet citizens]; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, at least 23 million of them ethnic Chinese. Both nations looted the countries they conquered on a monumental scale, though Japan plundered more, over a longer period, than the Nazis. Both conquerors enslaved millions and exploited them as forced labourers—and, in the case of the Japanese, as [forced] prostitutes for front-line troops. If you were a Nazi prisoner of war from Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand or Canada (but not Russia) you faced a 4% chance of not surviving the war; [by comparison] the death rate for Allied POWs held by the Japanese was nearly 30%.[30]

[Banditbandit]

I find that kinda difficult to believe.....600 yards on an open sight LE .303? Unless you mean one shot in ten or so....

Oh wait. My bad. Just read your other posts....you moved out from under your bridge - Troll?

No worries mate .. when our revolution comes I don't mind if you think I can't shoot that well ... it will let you take a few more risks ...

[Banditbandit]

Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.

I agree that there have been millions of people "piled on the altar of left-wing ideology" as you put it - equally, there have been millions of people "piled on the altar of right-wing ideology" ..

No ideology has the moral high ground - brutal, oppressive regimes are brutal and oppresive regimes, whatever their ideology.

[Banditbandit]

That depends on your definitions of regime and innocents. Is someone harbouring a terrorist an innocent? Also. if a terrorist group sets up operation in a school or a hospital who is the guilty party when someone who is not a member of the terrorist group gets hurt or killed?

Is Al Qaida a regime? Is Hazbulla a regime? Is Mugabwe heading a regime seperate from his country's regime?

So many possible definitions that change the answer to your question.

It also depends on the perspective of the person involved ... If people actively support a brutal and violent government how "innocent" are they really?

If hundeds of thousands of US citizens danced and sang in the streets at the news of Bin Laden's death how "innocent" do you think the terrorists believe those citizens to be?

(And before you all jump down my throat - I'm NOT arguing that they are not innocent (tho' in some sense I think they are involved - The US is a democracy "By the People, Of the People, For the People" - but I'm suggesting that the concept of "inocence" is even messier than you think).

[Maki]

Tibet swept under the carpet very neatly but what are they compared to the tens of millions piled on the altar of Leftie ideology... that the US fought against and defeated.

Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.

[oldrider]

Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.

True! But mopping up the slow learners is the hard part .... may never get through to some!

[Banditbandit]

Thanks, good reminder about Tibet. With respect to the Leftie ideology, it defeated itself.

Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????

Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..

Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...

Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve

The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.

[carbonhed]

Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????

Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..

Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...

Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve

The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.

Maybe we just need some Bandit riding fuckwit who struggles with Comparative Religions 101 to point out "Whoa maaan... it's like all shades of grey maaan... and wow... who's really to decide"?!????!

Just pick a fucking side... preferably not the side that puts women into bin liners in the name of religion.

[oldrider]

Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????

Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..

Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...

Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve

The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.

True! New Zealand is as left wing as it gets, there is no right wing offering here except for the never to get of the ground fledgling Libertarianz party!

Left wing politics is nurtured through our State school systems from the cradle to the grave and as a result our politicians are the same!

We get the governments we demand and deserve! (IMHO)

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

Left wing.... right wing... blah don't I need both wings to fly?

[Smifffy]

True! New Zealand is as left wing as it gets, there is no right wing offering here except for the never to get of the ground fledgling Libertarianz party!

Left wing politics is nurtured through our State school systems from the cradle to the grave and as a result our politicians are the same!

We get the governments we demand and deserve! (IMHO)

Governments don't run this country. Haven't for a long time (several administrations). It is run by the multi-national corporations that sponsor the political parties, and direct consumer behaviour through pricing and advertising.

Just ask Warner Bros. Look at the public and personal wealth that was gained in these years following the Americas cup. No doubt we will see a similar return on our collective investment in the RWC, that most have been priced out of attending.

The ones really calling the shots couldn't give a rat's pajamas if the country considers itself right-wing, left-wing, progressive or conservative. They don't care if their consumers pay with wages/salary a benefit or international aid money, as long as they can report a profit to head office and receive a salary/bonus that keeps them well ahead of the rest of the population.

[trustme]

Do you people have any idea just how leftwing a country we live in compared to the world stage????

Look at the US and the recent row over general health care ..

Our basically very cheap (used to be free) education system ...

Our social welfare system .. not just unemplyment benefits or solo mother benfits(regarded as a communist idea in the US) .. but old age pensions (in what ever form and name it currently has ... and which I bet you all expect to recieve

The left-wing is alive and well and surviving in Godzone ... and it probably scares the shit out of some of you 0- the tought that you might actually be leftwing, when your whole belief is that you are rightwing.

Name the most socialist prime minister we have ever had .

Rob Muldoon National

For once I might actually agree with you Bandit, we really only debate degrees of leftyness

[oneofsix]

Name the most socialist prime minister we have ever had .

Rob Muldoon National

For once I might actually agree with you Bandit, we really only debate degrees of leftyness

Left or right in NZ is the direction the party is trying to take the country in not how the present state compares with other countries. For instance National are chipping away at the National Super by increasing the age of entitlement. Make it high enough and all the workers in physical or lower paid jobs wont live long enough to receive it, thereby removing it as an option for them by stealth.

[Banditbandit]

Maybe we just need some Bandit riding fuckwit who struggles with Comparative Religions 101 to point out "Whoa maaan... it's like all shades of grey maaan... and wow... who's really to decide"?!????!

Just pick a fucking side... preferably not the side that puts women into bin liners in the name of religion.

Mate - I picked a side a long time ago ... I'm just having fun prodding ignorant dickheads on this site ...

If you think this is a serious discussion then you're sadly deluded ... some of us are serious and some of us are trolls. I have no idea who is what and neither do you ... I can claim to be serious - but I'll bet there are people here who just troll .. I can't decide who is serious and who is not and neither can you ...

(PS - I'm not into Comparative Religions - I'm more into phenomenology - and I got way way passed 101.)