Ducati making progress?

**Shaun** · 28th September 2011, 20:00

Originally Posted by codgyoleracer

Shaun, one assumes like me you have been through a number of "experimental projects " over the years - and its one of the great challenges to have a bike thats "easy" to ride a 9.5/tenths. Its incredible how a tiny modification sometimes literally 1-2 lbs of torque on a single bolt at some seemingly random place in the chassis or suspension can either smash apart your feel & feeback/confidence on a machine or totally solve a problem.
So my view on the alloy V carbon, is both materials on paper can possibly mimmick each other , however their individual "natural resonance" seems to be mysterious and unpredicatable when it comes to the infinatly variable forces placed through a motorcycle. Even a different riders style can bring out different traits in a bike, just through their own inputs aye.......
All part of the fun of course !

Yes I have and agree with what you are saying re the products. Once upon a time the Duc was fast and Stoner proved it, but since then all other brands have improved hugely.

There is NOT enough testing time allowed these days if you are trying to re create the wheel ie what Duc are doing

**Crasherfromwayback** · 29th September 2011, 08:22

Originally Posted by Mental Trousers

That online anywhere or no??

Ear ya go mate...

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**johan** · 29th September 2011, 08:53

great read, thanks for that!

**Crasherfromwayback** · 29th September 2011, 09:10

Originally Posted by johan

great read, thanks for that!

No worries mate. I remember only too well when everyone was saying Stoner only won his title on the Ducati because of it's superior electronics. But anyone that's been his team mate will say the same thing. Total bollocks. It's his superior throttle control that wins him races. He'd be the first guy to vote for banning the electronics.

It's also why I love watching him race so much. He's often the most sideways racer around...especially at the really fast tracks. Awesome. Pity he wasn't around in the 500cc two stroke era.

**johan** · 29th September 2011, 09:15

Yes, it's good to see him on a bike that matches his talent more closely

**Crasherfromwayback** · 29th September 2011, 09:23

Originally Posted by johan

Yes, it's good to see him on a bike that matches his talent more closely

Aye. Was a real shame to see him wasting his talent/time and risking serious injury beating his head against a brick wall at Ducati.

**codgyoleracer** · 29th September 2011, 09:35

Originally Posted by Crasherfromwayback

Ear ya go mate...

Great article

**NZsarge** · 29th September 2011, 09:56

Originally Posted by cowpoos

carbon firbre can have as much flex,damping,etc etc as you want...and far more precisely than metals...you name the physical property, you can build it in to a piece of carbon fibre weaved product....and I'm not kidding....carbon fibre axles on F1 cars are designed to twist 180 degrees...to dampen driveline shock, because of acceleration..the wings are designed to flex a certain way, a pecentage of the way down the wing, to a limited amount of flex..so as not to break any rules!!....the ability to design massive amounts of function into carbon fibre is amazing...seriously!!

as a development tool...its probally the long/slow way...once you have your parameters...mint!!

Without trying to be a smart arse or anything, if CF is as awesome as you say it is why aren't all the manufactures using it?
It obviously isn't working that well for Ducati and it looks like they might be on the edge so to speak of giving up on it.

**codgyoleracer** · 29th September 2011, 10:31

Originally Posted by NZsarge

Without trying to be a smart arse or anything, if CF is as awesome as you say it is why aren't all the manufactures using it?
It obviously isn't working that well for Ducati and it looks like they might be on the edge so to speak of giving up on it.

I suspect cost & public liabilty........

**johan** · 29th September 2011, 10:35

My guess at the next Ducati experiment:

"Rossi to try bamboo frame at Motegi"

**Mental Trousers** · 29th September 2011, 10:51

Originally Posted by NZsarge

Without trying to be a smart arse or anything, if CF is as awesome as you say it is why aren't all the manufactures using it?
It obviously isn't working that well for Ducati and it looks like they might be on the edge so to speak of giving up on it.

Carbon Fibre is a fabulous material. The problem with it is nobody totally understands it yet.

From an engineering perspective the engineers can design carbon fibre parts that have the exact properties required. However, the riders aren't able to interpret the feedback that the carbon fibre is giving and when you're riding a motorbike on the absolute limits feedback is everything. Nobody has been able to quantify what feedback is and slap a number on it, so the engineers don't know what to build to achieve the best feedback. Whether a design is right or not the only way to figure that out is to put a rider on it and see what he says and that could be as vague as I can't feel the front.

Everyone says that metal frames give the best feedback. But that's partly because everyone has been raised riding metal framed bikes so they're used to the feel of them and anything else feels wrong. It's a catch 22; to create a carbon fibre chassis that can compete you need feedback from the riders to improve it, but the riders aren't able to tell you what's going on because they don't understand what the carbon chassis is telling them.

**wharfy** · 29th September 2011, 10:54

Originally Posted by codgyoleracer

I suspect cost & public liabilty........

They should come and talk with some NZ yacht builders, they have been building whole boats out of it for years (I've even sailed on one with a CF dunny), I'm sure they will have shit loads of data (no pun intended).

**Mental Trousers** · 29th September 2011, 10:59

Formula 1 seems to have the low down on carbon fibre as well. But then they have too many wheels which makes things completely different. Bike designs are all about reading the subtleties when riding, cars are anything but subtle.

**NZsarge** · 29th September 2011, 11:04

Originally Posted by Mental Trousers

Carbon Fibre is a fabulous material. The problem with it is nobody totally understands it yet.

From an engineering perspective the engineers can design carbon fibre parts that have the exact properties required. However, the riders aren't able to interpret the feedback that the carbon fibre is giving and when you're riding a motorbike on the absolute limits feedback is everything. Nobody has been able to quantify what feedback is and slap a number on it, so the engineers don't know what to build to achieve the best feedback. Whether a design is right or not the only way to figure that out is to put a rider on it and see what he says and that could be as vague as I can't feel the front.

Everyone says that metal frames give the best feedback. But that's partly because everyone has been raised riding metal framed bikes so they're used to the feel of them and anything else feels wrong. It's a catch 22; to create a carbon fibre chassis that can compete you need feedback from the riders to improve it, but the riders aren't able to tell you what's going on because they don't understand what the carbon chassis is telling them.

Yep fair call but all the more reason to stick with Alloy, why try to fix something that isn't broke?

Originally Posted by wharfy

They should come and talk with some NZ yacht builders, they have been building whole boats out of it for years (I've even sailed on one with a CF dunny), I'm sure they will have shit loads of data (no pun intended).

Pun may not have been intended but is't funny none the less...

Enough internet talk, i'm going for a wee ride...