I agree 99%

[scott411]

What sort of specifics are you looking for/expecting?

not really sure to be honest, but people say we must change, but to what? the system is far from perfect and there are massive issues to sort out, but unless you give some details on an alternative, how can you make a decision to change?

[mashman]

not really sure to be honest, but people say we must change, but to what? the system is far from perfect and there are massive issues to sort out, but unless you give some details on an alternative, how can you make a decision to change?

As the guy says, we need to move in a more social direction utilising technology to augment where we want to go. Which will probably mean dealing with mass unemployment. That's not a problem without a financial system... or at least I don't see it being that much of an issue (I can explain that further if need be, but I reckon you can figure that out). Aye the system is far from perfect, but I have no doubt that there are better ones, but they have to be socially based and not financial... after all, in our current society money is king and is directly responsible for 99% of societies suffering.

As for needing an alternative in order to make an informed decision... you don't really need the alternative first. If you think that change is needed, then you're 90% of the way there, you just need an alternative after that ... or at least that's the way it worked out for me. Identify the problem and come up with a solution. I have a solution, but it's my solution and may well not be accepted by others attempting to achieve the same goal (I may yet find out). Funny thing is though, where we share the same goal i.e. a replacement for the financial system that is, then anything goes and any combination of ideas may actually get us to where we really should be heading... to that end I reckon those that are trying to "get us there" are more likely to collaborate than to waste time on the politics of how we get there. After that it's a revolution, or TPTB coming to the table to enact the idea using the vast resources and relationships that they have at their disposal.

Or somefink like that

blah blah blah

[willytheekid]

I watched Michaels comedy road show the other night, and a comic summed it perfectly:

"look at the world dept!...Ireland owes squillions and billions...england owes fiblillions....and usa owes (screams!).
"And just who exactly do we all owe these massive fucking depts to???....and why don't we just kill the bastards and move on!"

...best solution Ive heard yet

[superman]

Come on... technocracy time!

[mashman]

I watched Michaels comedy road show the other night, and a comic summed it perfectly:

"look at the world dept!...Ireland owes squillions and billions...england owes fiblillions....and usa owes (screams!).
"And just who exactly do we all owe these massive fucking depts to???....and why don't we just kill the bastards and move on!"

...best solution Ive heard yet

yeah we saw that too... it was a rejoke, as a guy used it the week before on his show... still true though ... some good talent on there.

[mashman]

Come on... technocracy time!

Would you like that with or without money sir?

[scott411]

As the guy says, we need to move in a more social direction utilising technology to augment where we want to go.

yes, easy to say, very hard to do,

Which will probably mean dealing with mass unemployment. That's not a problem without a financial system... or at least I don't see it being that much of an issue (I can explain that further if need be, but I reckon you can figure that out). Aye the system is far from perfect, but I have no doubt that there are better ones, but they have to be socially based and not financial... after all, in our current society money is king and is directly responsible for 99% of societies suffering.

greed is cause, and i do not think changing a system will change human nature, the video showing the black friday scrums to get cheap goods prove that, until you can trade your social goods for cool stuff it will be very hard to implement

As for needing an alternative in order to make an informed decision... you don't really need the alternative first.

as above, i disagree, change for change sake very rarely makes things better

If you think that change is needed, then you're 90% of the way there, you just need an alternative after that ... or at least that's the way it worked out for me.

i am not sure change is needed tho, because no alternative from history shows me a lasting solution,

Identify the problem and come up with a solution. I have a solution, but it's my solution and may well not be accepted by others attempting to achieve the same goal (I may yet find out).

would love to hear it


Funny thing is though, where we share the same goal i.e. a replacement for the financial system that is, then anything goes and any combination of ideas may actually get us to where we really should be heading... to that end I reckon those that are trying to "get us there" are more likely to collaborate than to waste time on the politics of how we get there. After that it's a revolution, or TPTB coming to the table to enact the idea using the vast resources and relationships that they have at their disposal.

[/QUOTE]

be interesting to see this revolution, maybe it is the answer, ww2 paved the way for the greatest growth in standard of living,

[mashman]

yes, easy to say, very hard to do,

Not really, it happens every day. Some new technology comes along and replaces human beings. We seem to identify a need, see if the tech is available/feasible and we build it. We may see a tech explosion (in a good way and not a bomb way), who knows.

greed is cause, and i do not think changing a system will change human nature, the video showing the black friday scrums to get cheap goods prove that, until you can trade your social goods for cool stuff it will be very hard to implement

If you change the system to remove "finance", what is there to be greedy over? you're right, the video proves the point very well, but what if those waffle makers were already free (no money remember)? Would you wait in line, or order it from the automated manufacturing plant? Where's the sense in having 50? You can't sell them (no money), no need for the scrum?

as above, i disagree, change for change sake very rarely makes things better

This isn't change for change sake. This is change for everyones sake. The idea behind me saying that you don't need an alternative first, is that you figure certain things out for yourself. I'm not trying to be all mysterious and sage like, or arrogant and idiotic depending on your viewpoint ... but thinking about an alternative from your perspective makes the idea yours, and to that end evolves with you (hippy sounding or not, believe me, it's fuckin true!). If I was to "give advice" and offer a starting point, I'd say take a look at NZ and think about how a "no money" system would benefit the country. If you can't think of anything, you can't think of anything. If you don't want to think about it, then I guess you're gonna have to wait until there's an agreement on a suitable alternative. You may find that you have THE answer.

i am not sure change is needed tho, because no alternative from history shows me a lasting solution,

If all else fails, try something completely different. What alternatives have been tried? What, other than human nature (we are so much more than greed etc..., soooooooo much more) has stopped it from happening? For me it was money that has stopped it. So different, is no money. I don't remember hearing about any high tech "civilisations" trying to live with a money, have you?

would love to hear it

I can hear the KB groan from here . There are tid bits of it around the forum and it has been evolving with me over time, mainly based on the issues highlighted by people I've discussed it with. I'll not get into it though... now I hear sighs of relief . Hopefully I'll have it on paper soon in some format or other, maybe after chrimbo, but it will be as close to a fully fleshed out alternative as I can make... aaaaaaand hopefully the smarter people will take what's workable (if they actually need any of it), add it to their ideas, turn it into a goal and then present it as a true alternative.

be interesting to see this revolution, maybe it is the answer, ww2 paved the way for the greatest growth in standard of living,

I'm hoping that it's TPTB coming to the table. Revolutions are seldom pretty I've been led to believe... and if we can get passed the need for money, the growth and standard of living ... WOW. I see something stunning, it goes beyond words... but then I'm a hippy commy lefty green anti-business dreamer with no concept of human nature or the capacity for rational thought.

Oh, hang on there's some guys at the door in white coa.............

[scott411]

If you change the system to remove "finance", what is there to be greedy over? you're right, the video proves the point very well, but what if those waffle makers were already free (no money remember)? Would you wait in line, or order it from the automated manufacturing plant? Where's the sense in having 50? You can't sell them (no money), no need for the scrum?

The problem was not the price, more the lack of supply, now if they were free, the only problem is if you can not give everyone one each,

now you take this out to every finite resource in the world, and how do we distribute them if you take away the monetary system?

[mashman]

The problem was not the price, more the lack of supply, now if they were free, the only problem is if you can not give everyone one each,

now you take this out to every finite resource in the world, and how do we distribute them if you take away the monetary system?

You share it. You're not going to make waffles every day. And even if you do, perhaps you could use next doors after/before, depending on when you wake up, they use it. Now you take this out to every finite resource in the world... as for distribution, you post it, same as always... we'll still need people to be distributors etc... the biggest problem is the resourcing, who does what when they want to do something else... which I guess comes down to social obligation. If the benefits by far outweigh the negatives e.g. I only have to work 4 hours a day in the sewer whilst the rest of you work 6, then I'll work in the sewer. It could be an aged based roster that's implemented, a welcome to the working world, please choose a shit job for the next 2 years (give or take depending on the age of the population), it could be that some people are happy to work in a sewer... after all, sanitation experts exist today and they probably don't get paid very well (I resisted saying crap wages). There's a myriad of ways of doing things... There will be people that will do anything for others, because there always have been... technically they'll be doing something for everyone, if you follow my train of thought?

[scott411]

You share it. You're not going to make waffles every day. And even if you do, perhaps you could use next doors after/before, depending on when you wake up, they use it. Now you take this out to every finite resource in the world... as for distribution, you post it, same as always... we'll still need people to be distributors etc... the biggest problem is the resourcing, who does what when they want to do something else... which I guess comes down to social obligation. If the benefits by far outweigh the negatives e.g. I only have to work 4 hours a day in the sewer whilst the rest of you work 6, then I'll work in the sewer. It could be an aged based roster that's implemented, a welcome to the working world, please choose a shit job for the next 2 years (give or take depending on the age of the population), it could be that some people are happy to work in a sewer... after all, sanitation experts exist today and they probably don't get paid very well (I resisted saying crap wages). There's a myriad of ways of doing things... There will be people that will do anything for others, because there always have been... technically they'll be doing something for everyone, if you follow my train of thought?

ok, i am starting to see more of your ideal's now, and they are brillant in theory, but like most systems, they simply do not work because humans are not great at getting on and sharing things, the history of the world shows that,

now already in the post you explain that some poeple may need to do worse jobs, so do them for less hours, but with 6 billion or so people on the planet, you makes the calls to say what is worse than what else, and is their a ranking system, what if someone disagrees with the 1st judgement, how do you equal it out?

[mashman]

ok, i am starting to see more of your ideal's now, and they are brillant in theory, but like most systems, they simply do not work because humans are not great at getting on and sharing things, the history of the world shows that,

now already in the post you explain that some poeple may need to do worse jobs, so do them for less hours, but with 6 billion or so people on the planet, you makes the calls to say what is worse than what else, and is their a ranking system, what if someone disagrees with the 1st judgement, how do you equal it out?

I agree in regards to history, but aren't we that great at getting on and sharing? I reckon given the current state of the world (not to be confused with the sky is falling the sky is falling) the vast majority are humming along quite nicely?

Far point... as mentioned earlier what we now consider menial tasks are what I refer to as shit jobs, just because it's easier to group them that way for discussion purposes (they're still all important as each other in my eyes)... but looking at it from a boring mindless task point of view, they'd possibly be the jobs that you'd leave open for anyone to do. If noone was doing them, then unfortunately you'd have to be a little sterner in regards to certain tasks, or get smarter with your tech (as the vid in the OP alludes to)... we can make it across the solar system, I'm sure we can be a little smarter in regards to menial tasks? There may well be the need for a ranking system from the start, as the tech may take a few years to develop, if someone disagrees with a certain "standpoint" then majority rules, where the majority may well be the entire country voting on the best perceived way forwards.

I'll drag equality to one side. Whilst I agree equality is a problem, we're not equal and I doubt there are many who would claim that we are. I'm smarter than everyone, so you should just all listen to me, problem solved... ooooooooor we use our education system to encourage people to be anything they want given the direction humanity needs to go in (again by consensus), with a smattering of equality (menial labor) thrown in along the way. So you have equality in that you all have an equal chance at being anything, but only some will make it to the "top"... which will have to be accepted (it currently is). If the top aren't receiving anything more than the bottom (how do you reward without money?), I don't see there being a problem, as we all have access to everything we need and we all have to put some time and effort in to keep society going in the right direction... or something to that affect.

I think if we get to the stage where we can have a moneyless society, our attitudes will have changed so dramatically, that we'll accept inequality as long as it's equitable. All winners, no losers... apart from any team that plays Liverpool in the Premier League (which will of course become law)

[Brian d marge]

My old grand ma solved it years ago,

Dont get into debt , "Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

That means Student loans , cars ....HOUSE ,,if its possible

Money is a good mechanism for trade , but like drugs..... when abused !!! with freedoms also come responsibilities...... these are they !!!

The man was right in a number of areas , namely about the amount of people looking for work , and the increased production due to technology . Result , supply and demand , wages fall.... profits due to production increase the top 1 percent get rich the rest in varying degrees dont.


So , solution .

Try to . Not use money. ( I know, even using this computer uses money ..untill I get my solar power up and running , which will cost money , paid for in cash ,,, a Decreasing cycle if one can see it )

Plant and grow vegetables ...Every where ...pay it forward. ( from top of head ) around ww2 bowel cancer was basically unknown in asian countrys , 18? odd, in America at the same time 140 000 ,cases ,,,so reduce meat and milk products to under 5% and eat your greens ( uncooked ) if poss

Education , You might NOT need a university degree, of if you do , don’t get into debt to finance it ,,,, ( if you are now , don’t pay it back !!,,,the system was forced upon us , we didn’t need it and the contract was changed , ie breach of contract )


Talk to your neighbour

finally the list I posted before;

What should we do from Prof Jane Kelsey's book;

Take economic fundamentalism seriously ..
* Nip it in the bud ..
* Be skeptical about fiscal and other "crises" ..
* Watch for the blitzkrieg ...
* Remember, the conservatives are not always the worst ..
* Take economics seriously ..
* Expose the illogic of their theory ..
* Evaluate the arguments carefully ..
* Challenge hypocrisy ..
* Expose 'stacking of the deck' .. ( I am not sure what this is )
* Maximize every political obstacle ..
* Maintain a strong civil society and popular sector ..
* Work hard to maintain solidarity ..
* Do not compromise the labour movement ..
* Employ the politics of political embarrassment ..
* Reinforce the concept of an independent public service ..
* Encourage community leaders to speak out ..
* Avoid anti-intellectualism ..
* Establish well-resourced critical think-tanks ..
* Develop alternative media outlets ..
* Raise the levels of popular economic literacy ..
* Educate popular and sectoral groups in advance ..
* Resist 'market-speak' ..
* Be realistic and avoid nostalgia ..
* Be pro-active and develop real alternatives ..
* Re-think identity and alliances ..
Challenge the TINA ( there is no alternative ) syndrome .. ( again not I am not sure )
* Promote informed debate and critique ..
* Promote participatory democracy ..
* Embrace the Treaty of Waitangi as a liberating force ..
* Encourage progressive counter-nationalism ..
* Develop multi-level strategies ..
* Hold the line ..
* Localise politics ..
* Ginger up party politics ..
* Invest in the future ..
* Support those who speak out ..
* Promote ethical investment ..
* Think global, act local ..
* Think local, act global ..

Oh and reduce debt as much as possible or borrow locally so the money stays locall

wear Sandals,


Me ? house bought and paid for , as is car and bikes , credit card is in use but have the money in wallet to pay it off and do at the end of the month , I grow as much of the food as I can , beer as well ( Scottish heavy ale sitting by the computer as we speak )
Trialing , Aquaponics , and permaculture , to maximize my food from my limited space

set backs, THE WIFE ..FKme she can spend money, and new gadgets,,, ( but I pay cash for those, but the communications bill each month could be halved at least )

So I hope , if it all goes pear shaped , I am in a position to feed my family

Stephen

ALL IMHO of course ........

[avgas]

Money is never the problem.
It is always the solution.

People are the problem.

Who is John Galt?

[Usarka]

I agree with what he is saying, there is a need for a massive change, however, much like the Occupy movement, i did not hear his answer,

They decided to land on the moon before they knew how they were going to do it.