Gotta feel for the Greek people

[Voltaire]

The Greeks ( Govt) blagged their way into the EU got lots of 'free' money and their governments are totally corrupt. They got Billions of EU money...you need to sell a lot of olives to pay for that.
I was there in 04 a petrol was 75 Euro cents.....in Northern Europe it was over 1 euro....Govt Subsidies to keep the people placid....works for a while.
I was living in Ireland and it was pretty obvious that it was all based on American companies exploiting the " made in Ireland' to get access to the EU.....worked in lots of US companies in the Cork area.... and Irish politics is also run off cronyism and backhanders.
The sad part is its the man in the street who gets screwed as the polys and their cronies have all their dosh salted away....pricks.
New Zealand may never reach the heady highs but it don't plummet like the Euro paper tiger economies.

[mashman]

Its a bit like taking on a 110% mortgage on a property you can´t really afford, finance on that new sofa, TV, car because you want it right now and can´t wait or be bothered to save up for it, maxing out your credit card on eating out and drinks - then finding out that you cant actually pay back the money people loaned you, so the bank gives you a bigger (consolidation) loan to pay back the money you shouldn´t have borrowed in the first place over a longer period. Sounds a lot like many peoples personal financial situations, they need to take a share of the blame as well. Anyone thats taken out loans they couldn´t afford are just as guilty as the banks that lent it to them, the banks should never have agreed to lend it to them in the first place. Just as Greece should never have been loaned the money in the first place, who do you blame - the people that took out the loans without working out how they were going to pay it back or the people that lent the money you asked for? Nobody forced Greece to borrow huge amounts of money, its sad that joe public is taking the majority of the hardship but a large percentage of joe public isn´t guilt free in this.

Who says they couldn't afford it at the time? Then along comes the Bank police, slashes the amount of money that's borrowed, ramps up the interest rate, imposes conditions that are completely unreasonable for 99% of the population which ends in utter chaos. I wholly blame the banks, they are custodians of money and the cost of money. If they're gonna lend it, they should be prepared to lose it the same as everyone else. I'm not saying people aren't pushing the boundaries of affordability, but they could afford it before the banks got in to trouble, panicked and cut off the money supply plunging the world into recession. There is no other reason for it. Once the money supply dried up noone could borrow a thing (we know that's how the world works, borrow borrow borrow) and we end up with a Greece to instill enough fear to push the ESM through, which is total and utter insanity for 99% of the population of the Globe, let alone Greece. The banks are to blame for turning the tap off, plain and simple.

I fuckin detest this system with a passion!!!!!!!!!!

[jonbuoy]

Anyone can go in a bank and ask for a loan.....should the banks provide the loans? Who do you blame? The one who asks, or the one who looks up and says , sucker if ya can't pay back i repossess the house, the sofa the tv and the car, sell it off cheaply and wait for the rest to be paid of with hey lets say high usurious interest rates?
A lot of people got themselves suckered in to keep up with the Joneses or because it is the only way to ever get a house. Throw in loss of job and income and they are buggered.

However the bank, in the business of dealing with money, run by peoples with big degrees in money lending, should have evaluated the risk and said sorry mate no can do?

Loan sharks this is how they behaved.

I am getting a bit tired of this austerity bull shit. it is punishing those that have not gambled more than those that have. How many times will the citizenry to be called upon to bail out international Money Lender?

Greece should tell the European Union as in Germany/France to get lost - btw. has anyone asked the populace of Germany/France if they would like to bail out Greece? Frankly I doubt.
Bring back the Drachme, make their own products again attractive and start providing for their own people first, and then the rest.

Exactly BOTH are to blame, suckered in to keep up with the jonses - so you only bought that new TV because your neighbour got one?? How retarded is that?

Who says they couldn't afford it at the time? Then along comes the Bank police, slashes the amount of money that's borrowed, ramps up the interest rate, imposes conditions that are completely unreasonable for 99% of the population which ends in utter chaos. I wholly blame the banks, they are custodians of money and the cost of money. If they're gonna lend it, they should be prepared to lose it the same as everyone else. I'm not saying people aren't pushing the boundaries of affordability, but they could afford it before the banks got in to trouble, panicked and cut off the money supply plunging the world into recession. There is no other reason for it. Once the money supply dried up noone could borrow a thing (we know that's how the world works, borrow borrow borrow) and we end up with a Greece to instill enough fear to push the ESM through, which is total and utter insanity for 99% of the population of the Globe, let alone Greece. The banks are to blame for turning the tap off, plain and simple.

I fuckin detest this system with a passion!!!!!!!!!!

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

[mashman]

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

I agree with you... people should be able to balance their budget etc... but they don't. Govts should be tighter on taxation rules, but they're not. Banks should not switch off the money supply because it's obvious what happens, but they do and that's not being strict with lending criteria, that's culling the economy. The ECB recently said it had unlimited money at 1% to lend, why didn't they do that 2 years ago? Because there was no new money sanctioned to be made available, the tap was turned off. Yes there are millions of people who wouldn't be able to pay off their debts if they lost their jobs or took a drastic cut in salary, but that isn't their choice, they don't ask to have their money devalued. You can't have economic growth without new money and that money is authorised in some grubby little office somewhere for people to squabble over. Banks are the custodians of how much your money is worth. You could wake up tomorrow to find your investments worth nothing.

[blue rider]

Exactly BOTH are to blame, suckered in to keep up with the jonses - so you only bought that new TV because your neighbour got one?? How retarded is that?

i have the most pathetic tv in the world......however we have a society that forces people to keep up inclusive the tvs,....whats that crap i hear about digital only thingys....god i don't even know the terms for it.
my bke i paid cash....i actually saved for it....but then i am a middle aged german broad...we do safe, credit cards are really fucking hard to get to get there, I know pathetic.
I have not yet bought a house, because I don't count on retiring in ffn auckland, is to smoky n hazy here, but buying is in many cases cheeper if ya can sell the box when ya don't need it anymore.
Have no car, how is one going to work?
no we are a society that lives on credit, in many places a credit rating is needed to get anything done....so again.

Thats the whole point of loans - interests rates change - thats why your supposed to work out if you can really afford to borrow money if the worst happens in 5 or 10 years, banks used to be very conservative with the amount they would lend and people themselves were more conservative about how much they were prepared to borrow. Not all banks went crazy some still stuck by their lending criteria, those are the ones in a strong position now. Some banks opened the doors to 110% mortgages which meant their was a higher demand for property which pushed the prices up. This made it un-affordable for some people who were saving for deposits to keep their deposit savings in line with house prices and before you know it they have to have a 100% or 110% mortgage. The fact is bankers werent the only people with their heads in the feeding troughs, millions of Greeks had their hands in the cookie jar, millions of people elsewhere also got fat on cheap credit buy now pay later schemes. Banks arent the custodians of your money, YOU are.

when schools start teaching how to budget, read the fine print, understand banking legalese and other such things i believe it. however looking at the US.....not even the banker understood what they sold themselves...Triple A anyone. Banks, local and State Governments, Financial Institutions/Retirement funds etc all went to gamble and lost. And it is for Mr. and Mrs. Ordinary Consumer to bail them out. Sure YeaH tui

I am only custodian of my cash....and its safer in my mattress than in the bank, brings the same interest too as I don't have to pay fees to use it.

[mashman]

I am only custodian of my cash....and its safer in my mattress than in the bank, brings the same interest too as I don't have to pay fees to use it.

Gotta say I have a new found interest in your mattress too

[blue rider]

Gotta say I have a new found interest in your mattress too

sorry mate, i don't share....

[SPman]

Good comment on here - http://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2012...ing-of-greece/

What makes the situation completely surreal are the numbers. Greek debt in 2008 was approximately 260bn Euro. The first bailout was 110bn, the current one, that appears to be tearing the country apart, is 130bn. Add in the PSI+ haircut of approximately 100bn ( after sweetener deduction ) and you realised that Europe could have simply paid the entire bill in 2008 and saved itself 80bn Euro. Ok, that is an oversimplification of the problem but you can see my point.
However now, after 340bn Euros, Greece still has an unmanageable debt, is in a far worse position than it was 3 years ago and it appears the country itself is coming apart at the seams.

[Indiana_Jones]

Fun times ahead?



-Indy

[blue rider]

came across this one the other day



let's not mention the evil D word.....

[puddytat]

My partner & I back in the late '80's, stripped bare the inside of a grand old building on the coast at Kuhlinsborn in the former DDR (East Germany),where once officials of both the Nazi party & later the Russian/German Communists officials had had thier summer holidays by the seaside.....
It was quite astounding the amount of cash that we found stashed all through the building, behind panelling, under floors, in the eaves....
Systems come, systems go.....

[flyingcrocodile46]

IMO the Greeks are being whiney arsed cry babies. The solution to their problems is to HTFU and start working harder (or working - period, in most cases) so they can pay proper taxes. As a whole they have had it too easy for too long. The sooner they man up to themselves the better for all.

[Brian d marge]

IMO the Greeks are being whiney arsed cry babies. The solution to their problems is to HTFU and start working harder (or working - period, in most cases) so they can pay proper taxes. As a whole they have had it too easy for too long. The sooner they man up to themselves the better for all.

in some ways you are right , bad management ( banks were giving away money , we all have been there !) , but its the average joe who will suffer , and poverty aint nice , trust me on this one

Who is the averge joe ,,,, its YOU

have a nice job , been working there for twenty years ? we ccan give it a name , Feltex ? next morning gone , bad management , who cares , try whining to your bank , but hey itd get a new job time , anything will do ,,,,sorry old fella there aint much call for 54 year old weavers , any other skills??? how about retraining ?

Stephen

[flyingcrocodile46]

in some ways you are right , bad management ( banks were giving away money , we all have been there !) , but its the average joe who will suffer , and poverty aint nice , trust me on this one

Who is the averge joe ,,,, its YOU

have a nice job , been working there for twenty years ? we ccan give it a name , Feltex ? next morning gone , bad management , who cares , try whining to your bank , but hey itd get a new job time , anything will do ,,,,sorry old fella there aint much call for 54 year old weavers , any other skills??? how about retraining ?

Stephen

I know life is hard and the wrong people often pay the most, (we all see it in every tax dollar we pay IMO) but the fact of the matter is crying and denial doesn't fix anything. It's all about moving forward... you did (one way or another) and everyone else does. You get on board or sink and drown, that's how life is and allways has been.

[blue rider]

and another good read

http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/...ce-for-greece/