848s in Supersport? A submission from Joe (Very) Average

[Tony.OK]

Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?
pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?
ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's
pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

There's nothing to stop you from submitting a remit to MNZ for any of the bikes you'd like to enter Stevie.

749 yuk?....................haha did you not look at that frankencane you rode (sorry paul)

[Tony.OK]

With the Panigale set for release it would be great to be able to run a Supersport/Superbike team 848/1199.

Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate

[SWERVE]

There already is Wiggles, your bike circulating at 11000 RPM when everyone else is running at redline!

PRICELESS..................... Marcus you do line yourself up for such posts

[CHOPPA]

Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate

If the 1199 was available last month it could well have ended up in our pits

[Biggles08]

PRICELESS..................... Marcus you do line yourself up for such posts

I'm here to please!

But seriously, why not have 848's race in Supersport class...who really thinks they have an advantage? Hell I might race one for shits and giggles cause Ducati may be pretty keen to get some of these on the grid and actually invest in road racing unlike some of the other brands currently! The more involed in racing the better for all involved in my very un humble opinion!

[slowpoke]

if the underlined is the case, theres no reason why you cant buy one and race it in bears.

Yep, I could well have simply bought an 848 and raced it in BEAR's, I even considered it. But as BEAR's and club racing were the only avenues I followed my heart and went for something I feel is even sexier (hey, it's my wet dream, not yours) and is a bit more "timeless" in the form of an R model (the 749R is even more race ready than the 999R due to limited WSS reg's) and which would allow me to race the most classes possible (F1/F2/BEAR's/Open Twins) at club and street meets. I could sit in the shed for ages just looking at it in the nuddies (the bike, not me) and soaking in the details, I farkin' love it. But, given the opportunity to get the same racing opportunities and participate at National events an 848 would be a no-brainer and the National Supersport category would have another entrant, (albeit at the back) which sounds like a win-win situation to me.

I am obviously on the anti brigade, but (my opinion only) while your letter is quite a passionately worded one that Im sure many will read and understand perfectly, the crux of your argument is 'because I want to'. The argument about more bums on seats, and more entries etc doesnt, as far as Im aware, have any factual basis - its only an opinion.

The original submission was made by 4 racers (1 a multi NZ champion) committed to racing 848's if given the opportunity, and given prior knowledge I'd be a 5th. That's a pretty healthy number given there's been very little exposure or promotion of the idea to the general racing community.

"Because I want to"? Isn't that why anyone does anything? But really this isn't actually about me, it's about improving the class/sport. With the new bike I'm a happy chappy whatever happens, and looking forward to the NZSBK circuit next season and racing in a support class while enjoying watching the main events. The point is that if I'd had an interesting Supersport legal alternative the Supersport grid would be bigger and there are at least 4 other people who feel the same way, all helping to put on a better show. (Ok point taken, not so much me, but the others would definitely be making a positive impact). Hell, even if only 2 extra bikes make onto the NZSBK Supersport grid that's still nothing to be sneezed at in the current economic climate. Thats a couple of thousand dollars in extra entry fees alone, and many thousands in tyres, parts, gear, services etc all flowing around the motorcycling community....just as a result of 2 extra bikes on the grid. I honestly can't see a down side, so it doesn't compute to see an opportunity for improvement that has so many flow on benefits and not take advantage of it.

Im not against changes to rules etc, but if you guys really want to push for it, wouldnt it help your cause to actually have names, numbers, figures and facts, that PROVE it would be the right decision to let them enter? making a change just to suit one or two, or maybe three people is in my opinion, a bad idea, and sets a dangerous precedent that anyone can get the rules bent if they petition/whinge/request or whatever.

As above re the names and numbers. The "right decision"? The performance difference between the 600/675's and 848's is negligible, as proven in the AMA by Jake Zemke (in Daytona Sports Bike) and Larry Pegram (Formula Extreme). The 848 ridden by highly credentialled and experienced riders in both different classes/specifications, was simply competitive, no more no less. This is fact, not opinion, so any perceived performance advantage simply does not exist.

Does anyone have any confirmed figures on how many people have $xxxx set aside and are poised to buy up an 848 if it gets the go ahead? have any of these shops confirmed that the addition would draw financial, or other support from them for the series?

As above re numbers/$$$. One of the proponents of the original submission has taken the intiative of approaching the CEO of Ducati NZ who has expressed his willingness to help with matters relating to homologation etc. So a previously uninvolved manufacturer is waiting for the opportunity to become involved.

Thanks Tim, there are some good questions in there and you've probably communicated what many racers are thinking.

I don't think I'm stretching the truth when I say that seeing 848's on track would generate more interest from both racers and spectators alike as comments on this thread have already shown. Dennis, Sketchy, Jadan, John Ross and co (that means you Biggles) put on a great show on very similar screaming 600's, but throwing a booming twin into the mix that does similar lap times in a different way undeniably adds something and extends the appeal of the class/sport to a new demographic of both racers and spectators. The feedback from potential racers and spectators has thus far been overwhelmingly positive and even when I step under the "cone of impartiality" I'm struggling to see any downside to this intiative.

The nitty gritty facts and figures have been presented/discussed in previous MNZ submissions, by far more knowledgeable people than me. The following is a rundown of perceived issues and responses (in brackets) by those big-brain type people:

1) The cost of the bike would be to high to build (incorrect – as in fact the bike requires only a limited amount of parts to make it “track ready” - info from respected/experienced Ducati tuner Dave Cole)

2) The distributors wouldn’t be happy (I am not sure why distributers have a say in MNZ member matters, other than reasons of common courtesy of course)

3) The bike has “too much horsepower” (incorrect, tuning houses that can attain 140rwhp out of the Ducati 848 also attain 145hp out of 600cc 4 cylinder machines, Numerous local and overseas independent dyno houses comment that the 848 Ducati is on average 119 – 124hp at the rear wheel)

4) The bike is too light (incorrect – the Ducati 848 wet weight with fuel is within 2kg of the lightest wet weight four cylinder machines, in other words it is very close, however a stipulation on weight limit could easily be included on a trial basis ?)

From the spectator side of the fence I can't wait to see/hear them ripping round the track. And as said before how can more bums on bikes be a bad thing?

Spud ya better start sweet talking as to why the landscaping has been put on hold, surely theres room in that huge trailer for one more skinny vee twin?

Yeah agreed mate. Even without being a Ducati fan, the sheer point of difference would have had me scanning the time sheets/websites etc with extra anticipation come the 2013 season to see how they went.

You bastard, you had to bring up the digging dintcha? FUCK I DIGGING! (might have something to do with working for Newcrest Mining and 3 of us hand digging a 30m cable trench one nightshift only to be told the next morning our maintenance jobs were being "out sourced"........CARNTS!)

And there's no room in the trailer, I'm pretty much living there after buying the 749

[slowpoke]

Dear Spud,

You can race an overpriced 848 Spaghetti bike at the back of F2. However, please be aware that if these devious eyeTies bring out a superdooper sub 850cc twin and they start pissing all over Japan's 599cc finest, then they can fark off back into Bears, Clubmans or join the big boys and race em in F1.

Furry muff

regards

Scracha

ps. By the same logic, surely Kawasaki 636 owners should be able to race in F2?

No argument from me, they're slower than current race rep's.

pps. And why not 850cc parallel twins either?

Haha, if anybody can qualify on a TRX850 or any form of F800 they definitely deserve to be there!

ppps. Fuck it....lets bung in VTR1000's and TL1000's too...mmm....and V max's

Hell yeah, I'd pay big dollars to see a field of V-Max's racing, it'd be like 2 wheeled truck racing!

pppps. 749.......yuk. Had they ran out of 748s?

Awwww, here's me thinking you were a cultured European gentleman with sublime taste. I'm crushed, it's like finding out the Master Chef judges can't wait for Macca's after the show.

[sinfull]

Do etttt!!

I'd pay gate price just to come have a squiz in the pits mate

I second this and know of prolly a dozen others, who would come to a race meet to ganda at a line up of bears bikes and where seeing some quality racing would just be the bonus !

[CHOPPA]

If it was allowed for supersport wonder if it would be ok for superstock?

[slowpoke]

This weekend the AMA guys were racing at Barber, Alabama (YEEHAAAW!). Qualifying and results give a pretty good indication of how the 848 is travelling in Daytona Sportbike:

Note, the DSB rules are fairly similar to our Supersport rules, with engine mods even more restrictive in DSB, but suspension and steering are a bit more open (aftermarket rear linkage allowed, aftermarket triples and head angle adjustment allowed).

Qualifying for DMG Daytona Sportsbike at Barber
1 Cameron Beaubier Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6 1:27.685
2 Jason DiSalvo Team Latus Motors Racing Triumph Daytona 675 1:27.709
3 Dane Westby M4 Broaster Chicken Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:28.113
4 Tommy Hayden Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.193
5 Martin Cardenas Geico Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:28.504
6 Bobby Fong Meen Motorsports Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.522
7 Jake Gagne Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6 1:28.988
8 Paul Allison Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.029
9 Jake Zemke Ducshop Racing Ducati 848 1:29.164
10 Joey Pascarella Vesrah Suzuki GSX-R600 1:29.352
11 Austin Dehaven Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.594
12 Huntley Nash LTD Racing Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.605
13 JD Beach Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6 1:29.641
14 Kris Turner Turner's Cycle Racing Triumph Daytona 675 1:29.686
15 Cory West Riders Discount Vesrah Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600 1:29.787

Qualifying Results of Race 1 DMG Daytona Sportsbike at Barber

1 Cameron Beaubier Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6
2 Dane Westby M4 Broaster Chicken Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
3 Tommy Hayden Graves Yamaha Extended Service Yamaha YZF-R6
4 Jason DiSalvo Team Latus Motors Racing Triumph Daytona 675
5 Martin Cardenas Geico Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
6 Bobby Fong Meen Motorsports Racing Yamaha YZF-R6
7 Benny Solis Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6
8 Jake Zemke Ducshop Racing Ducati 848
9 JD Beach Road Race Factory/Red Bull Yamaha YZF-R6
10 Mike Beck Yamaha YZF-R6
11 Cory West Riders Discount Vesrah Suzuki Suzuki GSX-R600
12 Huntley Nash LTD Racing Yamaha YZF-R6
13 Joey Pascarella Vesrah Suzuki GSX-R600
14 Austin Dehaven Triple Crown Industries Yamaha YZF-R6
15 Fernando Amantini Team Amantini Kawasaki ZX-6R
16 Bryce Prince Rotobox/Nexx Yamaha YZF-R6

For those who don't follow AMA racing, Zemke (amongst many other achievments) was a factory Honda Superbike rider and one of the few capable of challenging Mladin and Spies. He's no mug.

[discodan]

3) The bike has “too much horsepower” (incorrect, tuning houses that can attain 140rwhp out of the Ducati 848 also attain 145hp out of 600cc 4 cylinder machines, Numerous local and overseas independent dyno houses comment that the 848 Ducati is on average 119 – 124hp at the rear wheel)

4) The bike is too light (incorrect – the Ducati 848 wet weight with fuel is within 2kg of the lightest wet weight four cylinder machines, in other words it is very close, however a stipulation on weight limit could easily be included on a trial basis ?)

I haven't done enough research to know all the facts but from what I can tell, they put out more HP than the 600s in stock form. This is straight off the AMA site for the DSB class:

Horsepower: 120 hp to 140 hp
Minimum Weights: 4 cylinders – 355 lbs.; 3 cylinders – 360 lbs.; 2 cylinders – 375 lbs.

From what I have heard, none of the 600s in NZ are even close to 140HP so the rules over there are probably more different than you think. Also interesting that they impose weight penalties for the twins.

I'm undecided. It would be nice to have more / different bikes on the grid but the fact is that they have an extra 250cc and if they did prove to be better than the 600s then we might have gained a manufacturer only to lose support form a major backer such as Suzuki.

[CHOPPA]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ducati_848

[scracha]

There's nothing to stop you from submitting a remit to MNZ for any of the bikes you'd like to enter Stevie.

Who say's Kiwi's don't get sarcasm?

749 yuk?....................haha did you not look at that frankencane you rode (sorry paul)

Frankencane is work in progress. She's allowed to be ugly. It's not like I've spent thousa....oh....fuck. Anyway...the new fairing and paint Billy made just jinxed her.

Awwww, here's me thinking you were a cultured European gentleman with sublime taste. I'm crushed, it's like finding out the Master Chef judges can't wait for Macca's after the show.

Sorry, but haven ridden a 749s I can honestly say it felt and sounded almost Japanese compared to the 748r. And shit...ugly. Mibby Billy could shoehorn some 748 fairings on yours?

Fuck Mickey D's......Gordon Ramsey gets a lob-on for the potato and gravy at Kiwi KFC's.

[slowpoke]

Sorry, but haven ridden a 749s I can honestly say it felt and sounded almost Japanese compared to the 748r. And shit...ugly. Mibby Billy could shoehorn some 748 fairings on yours?

Fuck Mickey D's......Gordon Ramsey gets a lob-on for the potato and gravy at Kiwi KFC's.

Think R model Stevie, with the short stroke, Ti rods, hotter cams etc, dry slipper clutch music, monster Leo Vince full system, big airbox etc etc Can't say I've got a clue what to do with it but at my age any erection is a good erection!

[slowpoke]

I haven't done enough research to know all the facts but from what I can tell, they put out more HP than the 600s in stock form. This is straight off the AMA site for the DSB class:

Horsepower: 120 hp to 140 hp
Minimum Weights: 4 cylinders – 355 lbs.; 3 cylinders – 360 lbs.; 2 cylinders – 375 lbs.

From what I have heard, none of the 600s in NZ are even close to 140HP so the rules over there are probably more different than you think. Also interesting that they impose weight penalties for the twins.

I'm undecided. It would be nice to have more / different bikes on the grid but the fact is that they have an extra 250cc and if they did prove to be better than the 600s then we might have gained a manufacturer only to lose support form a major backer such as Suzuki.

Thanks Dan. Hard to tell what your hp range is referring to when read in isolation but don't forget the DSB class was originally created with twins ranging from 848's to Aprilia RSV1000R to Buell 1125R. I reckon you'll find the Ape and Duc at one end of that hp range and the Buell at the other. The weight limit was/is across the board for twins yet targetting the Buells, hence the 848 are struggling now and not many folks run them.

Nah, the engine rules are even more restrictive than our supersport rules. No cams, no porting, no after market rods or pistons, no crank lightening, can't even replace valve springs, cotters or retainers. Basically you can bump up compression through skimming respective gasket surfaces/skinny gaskets, change or slot the cam sprockets, and change the inlet trumpets. Throw on a zorst, add a PC and that's about it for makin' mumbo. Go here for the full run down (half way down): http://www.amaproracing.com/assets/A...1-Rulebook.pdf

I'm all for keeping manufacturers in the sport but they have to realise it is a competition. No manufacturer should be allowed to assume a postion where they are allowed to dictate the terms of that competiton. That is for people far less biased and with a "big picture" view of the sport of motorcycle road racing in NZ, not selling an individual brand/model of bike. I'll be pretty disappointed if any manufacturer has so little faith in their bikes/riders that they are not willing to test them against all comers.