Hi-viz, does it make a difference in rider visibility?

[James Deuce]

No duh, I guess my attempt at sarcasm failed over the internet. Next you will be telling me humans need air to breath. Here, let me help you out. http://www.che.iitb.ac.in/faculty/gk...anka/cfa1.html You missed the point, I was using hi-viz interchangeably with colors and reflective material. I never said you can see colors at night. You stated the obvious. You can have high visibility by supposedly wearing bright colors during the day or you can have high visibility by wearing reflective material at night. Thus, hi-viz day or night. Are you trying to say that you are invisible at night when you wear reflective materials?

I don't know, you're the one that's failing to communicate. Sarcasm works best in person and generally in the company of people with a reasonably profound understanding of your personality traits. Assuming one has a personality of course.

[FJRider]

Are you trying to say that you are invisible at night when you wear reflective materials?

I've generally found people see my head/tail lights before they see any reflective panels I may be wearing ...

[wasiler]

I've generally found people see my head/tail lights before they see any reflective panels I may be wearing ...

True, from the front I don't think the reflective material will be visible. From the rear it will be a little better. From the side will be the best because you don't have any lights. I stated in an earlier post that I think lighting is the best way to be seen. Either a headlight modulator or LEDs. I also like to use blue LED license plate bolts at the rear. Here are some that are red which I guess are alright and would be legal here because they are red. I have the blue which stands out a little more against the other red tail lights. They are surprisingly bright too.

http://www.sz-wholesaler.com/p/633/6...ht-248163.html

http://carkart.com/LED-LIGHT-BOLTS-P...ilter_name=led

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/led-li...ight,4677.html

[Matariki]

I think reflective hi-viz at night would help but, don't think it is the best. I think lighting is the best way to stand out day or night. Do police cars turn on their high viz when they have an emergency? That is why they have lights and a siren.

I don't see how the hi-viz would work during the day. The reason being is because you have so many colors during the day, signs, grass, painted cars and buildings....For a car coming from the side, I think they will see you anyway because you are moving perpendicular to their vision with or without high viz. Maybe even better if you are a black dot against a colorful background. Maybe you will stand out a tiny bit more with high viz against a black background...who knows. I think it will be about the same.

The main problem is when coming head on during the day. Also probably when most accidents happen. It is a little harder to stand out because you are just a stationary dot. A colorful dot in a sea of color. That orange dot would be lost in the mix. That is not a fact, just food for thought. During the day time, you have to provide some type of erratic movement when coming toward traffic to catch the eye of the car driver. I saw a video where one guy says to weave side to side. That to me does not seem practical and will you be doing that all day long? The only way I see to stand out is by using one of those headlight modulators that pulse. Thus, the erratic movement of your light is what you need to help stand out. Not saying it is fool proof. I don't wear orange because I don't think it will make that much of a difference. My jacket is black but, it does have those reflective strips built in for night time. If you want to wear bright orange during the day, go for it. It can't hurt.

At night, the reflective material is needed because you don't much light on your sides and a small red lamp in the rear. This is where you stand out because you are a glowing blob against a black background. Head on at night you have got that really bright head light. The rear...ehh, can't say I am too crazy about one tiny red lamp. Thus, the reflective material and the blue LED. The blue led in the back stands out from all the other red break lights.

A LED on the side would also probably be a good choice too but, I don't have one. When I see a cars headlights approaching from the side and if I can, I will slow down or speed up to avoid meeting the intersection at the same time. Doesn't always work but, I guess just call me a rebel.

True. But I think the general idea behind Hi-Viz is because not only are you sporting a color that generally contrasts against the colors found in most environments but you're also wearings colors that reflects light, so you're more likely to stand out than if you were wearing matt/flat colors. At night time, the reflective material is what is going to stand out, but in the day I think the fluoro is more likely to stand out. I tend to wear a combination of fluorescent colors (Hi-Viz yellow helmet with an orange/yellow vest) just so I don't look like one large singular colored mass. I'm also changing the lighting system on my bike over to LED. I'm not sure if the combination of different fluorescent colors would work in my favor, but my dad (who's optometrist) says that I am more likely to be seen on the road.

I don't fully understand the science behind how the human eye processes colors and lights, but I know this much;

The eye is designed to register light, how that works is that the human eye has six outer layers (like an onion), the first layer of the six outer layers is the cornea, all light needs to go through the cornea before it hits the inner layer where color, light sensitivity and detail is processed; the retina. In the retina there are two types of cells; the rod cells (which are responsible for vision in low light) and the cone cells (which are responsible for processing color and detail). In the back of the eye (which is in the center of the retina) is the mucula and in the mucula there is an area called the fovea centralis which only contains cone cells and is responsible for seeing detail clearly.



With the rod and cone cells when light hits them, it results in a chemical reaction that sends a signal to the brain. When light enters the eye, it comes in contact with a photosensitive chemical (Rhodopsin) which breaks down and forms into metarhodopsin II (activated rhodopsin) when light hits it, this chemical change is what results in the electrical impulses that sends the signal to your brain which is then interpreted as light. The more light there is, the more rhodopsin is broken down and activated, resulting in a stronger signal. This is why sometimes your eyes hurt when you look at something bright (like the sun or snow). With the Hi-Viz, the idea is to produce a nice strong signal that the brain is more likely to register.

Yellow (Chartreuse) is the most visible color to the human eye, since it reflects the most light.

[FJRider]

With the Hi-Viz, the idea is to produce a nice strong signal that the brain is more likely to register.

Some brains don't seem to register Red and Blue flashing lights ... with a siren. What makes a few reflective panels so special ... ???

[Matariki]

I really meant in those places where being seen is an issue. If someone cannot see me approaching with my head light on then I have no confidence that wearing hi-viz will improve things.

What if the driver is behind you or in another lane next to you on the motorway? (unless you have back lights or something)

[Matariki]

Some brains don't seem to register Red and Blue flashing lights ... with a siren. What makes a few reflective panels so special ... ???

Well, there could be other reasons why someone might want to ignore Red and Blue flashing lights and a siren. But not noticing it, I'm not sure how you can't notice it unless you don't check your rear view mirror and have your music up too loud.

[Berries]

Yellow (Chartreuse) is the most visible color to the human eye, since it reflects the most light.

Now see, I am quite badly colour blind. I was going to make an offhand comment about all the cones I smoked in my yoof having affected the cones in my eyes but then you said that. I have to wear hi-viz at work occasionally. It used to be fluoro yellow and I could see it. The orange they now use is invisible to me with pretty much any kind of background. I can't see traffic cones, and road works signs just disappear if they have any kind of vegetation near them. I know I am towards the far end of colour disability (is it cos I am black?) but if 10% of the male population are colour blind it doesn't make sense to try and make things visible and yet not use the most visible colour.

What if the driver is behind you or in another lane next to you on the motorway? (unless you have back lights or something)

Getting hit from behind makes up such a small proportion of bike crashes it is not worth worrying about. The driver will either be distracted trying to find an address, perving at someone, arguing with a passenger or pissed. And going on the fact that infinitely more cars are rear ended than motorbikes I would have to suggest that this crash type is rarely related to visibility.

If you get hit by someone changing lanes then I'm sorry, you were both poorly positioned and unaware of your surroundings. We all know cars have a blind spot and we all know that drivers don't look over their shoulders. If a driver can't see you because you are not even in their field of vision then hi-viz won't make a difference.

This subject will just keep going round in circles. In my opinion, if you ride defensively there should be no reason to need hi-viz. Some people say it helps, but then you still have to ride defensively anyway, so why bother?

[Matariki]

Now see, I am quite badly colour blind. I was going to make an offhand comment about all the cones I smoked in my yoof having affected the cones in my eyes but then you said that. I have to wear hi-viz at work occasionally. It used to be fluoro yellow and I could see it. The orange they now use is invisible to me with pretty much any kind of background. I can't see traffic cones, and road works signs just disappear if they have any kind of vegetation near them. I know I am towards the far end of colour disability (is it cos I am black?) but if 10% of the male population are colour blind it doesn't make sense to try and make things visible and yet not use the most visible colour.


Getting hit from behind makes up such a small proportion of bike crashes it is not worth worrying about. The driver will either be distracted trying to find an address, perving at someone, arguing with a passenger or pissed. And going on the fact that infinitely more cars are rear ended than motorbikes I would have to suggest that this crash type is rarely related to visibility.

If you get hit by someone changing lanes then I'm sorry, you were both poorly positioned and unaware of your surroundings. We all know cars have a blind spot and we all know that drivers don't look over their shoulders. If a driver can't see you because you are not even in their field of vision then hi-viz won't make a difference.

This subject will just keep going round in circles. In my opinion, if you ride defensively there should be no reason to need hi-viz. Some people say it helps, but then you still have to ride defensively anyway, so why bother?

True enough, Hi-Viz anything won't mean jack all if a driver isn't looking where he or she is going or if you have a inexperienced rider on the motorcycle. But If wearing Hi-Viz can increase my chances of being seen, then I can't see any harm in wearing it. But you state some valid points that can't be ignored, but at the same time I can't ignore the results of the 2004 published paper that I posted in my first post.

In my own experience, I tend to notice those wearing Hi-Viz from a distance. When I'm driving on the motorway for an example, I tend to notice a rider who either has LED lights or is wearing Hi-Viz. But I have to honest, I don't notice those wearing the Hi-Viz as well as I do with those using LED lights. Considering that my motorcycle doesn't have LED lights, if I had to choose out of wearing Hi-Viz or not, I would prefer to wear Hi-Viz (even more so in overcast weather or at night).

[oneofsix]

True enough, Hi-Viz anything won't mean jack all if a driver isn't looking where he or she is going or if you have a inexperienced rider on the motorcycle. But If wearing Hi-Viz can increase my chances of being seen, then I can't see any harm in wearing it. But you state some valid points that can't be ignored, but at the same time I can't ignore the results of the 2004 published paper that I posted in my first post.

In my own experience, I tend to notice those wearing Hi-Viz from a distance. When I'm driving on the motorway for an example, I tend to notice a rider who either has LED lights or is wearing Hi-Viz. But I have to honest, I don't notice those wearing the Hi-Viz as well as I do with those using LED lights. Considering that my motorcycle doesn't have LED lights, if I had to choose out of wearing Hi-Viz or not, I would prefer to wear Hi-Viz (even more so in overcast weather or at night).

As long as the hi-viz is built into your gear and not some sort of add on that flaps in the wind, can get uncomfortable, (you know the way you can wear something a 100 times but just hat once it wont sit right), or in any other way distract you from your primary function whilst on the bike. The draw back of built in hi-viz being that it will discolour and loose some of its affect before you are finished with your gear.

I too used to think I was noticing the hi-viz better but then realised I was spotting the bike a split second before but noticing and recording the hi-viz.

But as said above, providing the way you are wearing it is doing no harm, you realise that in some rear conditions it can make you harder to spot and generally it wont help alot and its not forced on you then why not. Truth is wit hte way you are thinking your riding style is probably doing more to protect you than hi-viz ever will and wearing it will just show you are a careful rider.

[MSTRS:Me]

Two points.

I'll bet that study was paid for by 3M.

The type of riders who choose to wear high visibility clothing (note the lack of infantile abbreviation) are 37% less likely to have accidents is a more correct assessment of the results.

You can argue all you like about reducing injury through gear. As far as I know, sheep are both colour blind and stupid, and old people can be both but also have the enormous burden of being human and running a restricted version of a human brain. Both have proved far more dangerous to me than any other "demographic".

Any form of compulsion is bad. Any form of peer pressure to conform to "commonly accepted practice" should be fought with every breath including your dying one.

I'm with you on these points, young fella.

In fact, I will add that I believe the ONLY hi-viz that a rider should utilise and rely on is his/her eyesight.

[p.dath]

...
Do you think Hi-Viz makes much of a difference in rider visibility? ...

During day time riding I think it makes little difference. My opinion during night time wavers, and I think it may help in low light conditions.

Just to balance up the research you have.

The largest motorcycle safety research done in the world was the HURT report, done in the US, in the late 70's. It found the use of daytime head lights or the use of high-viz helped. The consequence of this is that many countries started introducing compulsory headlight laws. Sure it took NZ 30 years to follow suit, but we did the same.
The reason the study said "or" was because there wasn't much of a difference in safety doing both.

The second largest study done in the world was the MAIDS report in Europe. It looks at the general issue on conspicuity. It found that it made little difference, and that some cases, such as riders wearing white helmets, that those riders where involved in more accidents than those riders wearing black helmets.
HOWEVER, the results showing that wearing more highly visible items made your safety worse were within the margin of error, and certainly less than the "5 sigma" test to be confident it was correct.

Then the much smaller Auckland University study that you quoted was done. It showed the opposite of the larger MAIDS report, and that there was an improvement in safety by being more visible. HOWEVER, just like the MAIDS report, the results fell car short of the "5 sigma" test of confidence, so you can't really consider it statistically significant.

FYI, currently 23% of all injury based motor vehicle accidents (that's all classes of vehicles, not just motorcycles) list driver inattention as a contributing cause. That's the old "sorry, I didn't see you". These are predominantly car drivers you didn't see other cars and trucks (the majority of road users). With this category there are reasons listed like "changing radio/music", TXTing, etc.
If you can appreciate that this is a very large group of the accidents, and that cars and trucks are highly visible compared to motorbikes - you can quickly come to the conclusion that being more visible wont help you. If someone is TXTing or changing the radio - or anything where they simply aren't looking where they are driving - then you could be naked and it still isn't going to help.

And then you get excellent psychological research like the "Invisible Gorilla" (You Tube it for a quick example). Basically the research shows that the brain only sees what it is expecting to see. To demonstrate this, they get a person to dress up in a Gorilla suit and walk through the middle of a basketball game. Afterwards they surveyed the people watching, and only 50% saw the gorilla. Once again, if the brain is not expecting to see a gorilla it probably wont see it.

So if you lane splitting for example, and a driver is not expecting to see you, then they probably wont see you. It doesn't matter how visible you make your self.

And then there are other issues like motion camouflage.


I could probably go on and on quoting you more studies and statistics, but at the end of the day it is up to you. Personally, during day time use, I feel that if you already have a head light on, high-viz is going to do almost nothing for you.

[FJRider]

Well, there could be other reasons why someone might want to ignore Red and Blue flashing lights and a siren. But not noticing it, I'm not sure how you can't notice it unless you don't check your rear view mirror and have your music up too loud.

In Auckland not so long ago ... a guy turned in front of a cop car as it was coming towards him. His wife (the passenger) died.

[MSTRS:Me]

In Auckland not so long ago ... a guy turned in front of a cop car as it was coming towards him. His wife (the passenger) died.

Try the plethora of braindead fuckwits on our roads that "don't see or hear" the big white bus under lights and sirens. Talk to an ambo for the real story...

[pete-blen]

I don't know what the big drama is..
I can't see that a Hi viz will course you to get hit..
but don't let having one lure you into a false sence
of secrurity...
So if yer want to use one .. go for it...