Middle East

[Paul in NZ]

Not a bad summing up really. And your final comment is more profound than you may realise...

It is not so much the religious aspect per se, as many if not most religious writings are promoting peace and harmony and encourage doing good to one's neighbour.

The problem is with the human race in toto. People tend to be greedy, and money/power hungry and will sieze upon any good excuse to gain such, and with Man's inherent spiritual nature, an inbuilt need to believe in a higher power, religion is a perfect means to achieve that. It wasn't just religious leaders who wanted the gerneral populace to remain ingnorant in order they could control them, politicians, ie: Kings, Emperor's, etc. preferred this and actively used their power to supress in order to maintain their position.

When the Jews actually lived according to their scriptures, they were prosperous and had peace between them and their surrounding neighbours and internal peace each one. Finances were organised fairly and no-one was left permanently indebted, heritances were preserved and women and children were respected and cherished.

Unfortunately, too often their greed and avarice won out over law, and finally when they murdered Christ they were rejected as the People of God. However, the Jewish nation refused to accept Christ and maintain they are still God's Chosen Nation. They remain in expectation of the Messiah right through to today.

Man is more than capable of Genocide and murder and nationalistic fervour and hatred without religion, as history shows. But certainly organised religion is due its comeuppance and it won't be too far away either. But that's for another thread...

The 'Jews' didn't murder Christ. A few men of power got rid of what was to them a bit of an inconvenience and likely a civil criminal. The 'Jews' as in Mr and Mrs average jew had nothing at all to do with it. In fact I doubt, given that information technology and communications of the time consisted of a fat git called achmed and a surly camel that they even knew he existed... He certainly didnt start much - it was that prick paul a few decades later that caused all the problems.

Ed I disagree - the vast majority of people are NOT greedy horrible people at all. They are just busy getting on with life and thus susceptible to snake oil salesmen promising everything and delivering nothing. Stuff gets done in their name and sold to them as a good idea. Mostly people are just scared... problem is the saviours are the ones you really need to be afraid of.

[Edbear]

The 'Jews' didn't murder Christ. A few men of power got rid of what was to them a bit of an inconvenience and likely a civil criminal. The 'Jews' as in Mr and Mrs average jew had nothing at all to do with it. In fact I doubt, given that information technology and communications of the time consisted of a fat git called achmed and a surly camel that they even knew he existed... He certainly didnt start much - it was that prick paul a few decades later that caused all the problems.

Ed I disagree - the vast majority of people are NOT greedy horrible people at all. They are just busy getting on with life and thus susceptible to snake oil salesmen promising everything and delivering nothing. Stuff gets done in their name and sold to them as a good idea. Mostly people are just scared... problem is the saviours are the ones you really need to be afraid of.

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.

I didn't say most people are capable of hatred, even among the religions, most people just want to get along and live in peace. My point was that it doesn't necessarily need religion for Man to be cruel to his fellowman. It is human nature that is at fault with those who use religion or nationalism for their greedy ends.

Looking at the violence and anarchy going on around the world today, not all of it is religiously based. Much of it is political, drugs or gang violence and in general society, including NZ, Australia, the USA, people are becoming more violent, less caring, more reactionary, more anarchic.

[Paul in NZ]

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.

I didn't say most people are capable of hatred, even among the religions, most people just want to get along and live in peace. My point was that it doesn't necessarily need religion for Man to be cruel to his fellowman. It is human nature that is at fault with those who use religion or nationalism for their greedy ends.

Looking at the violence and anarchy going on around the world today, not all of it is religiously based. Much of it is political, drugs or gang violence and in general society, including NZ, Australia, the USA, people are becoming more violent, less caring, more reactionary, more anarchic.

Ed the point is that all the various branches of the followers of the god of abraham are drenched in blood to the point where they are simply beyond redemption. They are by their own definition evil sinners but think that they will be saved by faith.

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

Frankly - I would welcome a second coming ....

[RDJ]

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

...and the (small) advantage is that evil civil governments may get lazy or sated... whereas the truly diligent fanatics just keep right on killing the unbelievers as they (claim to) think they are saving in the afterlife the people they slaughter in this life...

[Edbear]

Ed the point is that all the various branches of the followers of the god of abraham are drenched in blood to the point where they are simply beyond redemption. They are by their own definition evil sinners but think that they will be saved by faith.

Religion is just another way of organizing societies and it always end in death. Civil governments are not much better but the stronger the belief and the louder the preacher to more violent the outcome.

Frankly - I would welcome a second coming ....

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.

We see it every day, how the masses can be lead by the powerful minority and certainly religious fanaticism has been predominant throughout history. This is slowly but surely giving way to Nationlism, though, as more and more people get fed up with the lies, hypocrisy and bloodshed, not to mention the paedophilia, of their religious leaders and desert them in droves. Their "waters are drying up" and they are losing support world-wide. However, Man as a race still needs leadership and something to believe in and fight for, so watch this space for the rise of intense Nationlism, particularly in the West, but coupled with a corresponding rise in civil unrest around the world.

[Akzle]

EVERY organization professing to represent the word of any god has a history of lying and filling in gaps to the point of their material being suspect in the extreme.

have you looked at bhuddist, vedic, krishna scriptures and history?

[Paul in NZ]

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.

We see it every day, how the masses can be lead by the powerful minority and certainly religious fanaticism has been predominant throughout history. This is slowly but surely giving way to Nationlism, though, as more and more people get fed up with the lies, hypocrisy and bloodshed, not to mention the paedophilia, of their religious leaders and desert them in droves. Their "waters are drying up" and they are losing support world-wide. However, Man as a race still needs leadership and something to believe in and fight for, so watch this space for the rise of intense Nationlism, particularly in the West, but coupled with a corresponding rise in civil unrest around the world.

I disagree - I think we are on the verge of another age of empires. I've said before that the greatest test for a civilisation is the way it handles its critic's. Britains handling of the hate preacher has been excruciating compared to the US methods and one wonders how long Obama can restrain himself over crap like the birther debate. Eventually staps have to be taken to protect our way of life and we start down the slippery slope. We already have a foot on it...

In addtion, democracy cannot possibly survive the increasing disparity between rich and poor and soon the only option for the poor will be to sell their labour to the rich in return for protection. Essentially feudalism.

Nationalism - no - empire building yes. My prediction? The USA and Russia are the new Romes and entering the Cesar era.. The republican dream is dying.

[Katman]

Again I agree with you here, you may not realise just how close to the truth you are though.

Ed, you believe in fairy tales.

You wouldn't know truth if it fucked you up the arse.

[Edbear]

Ed, you believe in fairy tales.

You wouldn't know truth if it fucked you up the arse.

I suppose you are thick enough not to notice you just offended Paul in NZ...

[Paul in NZ]

I suppose you are thick enough not to notice you just offended Paul in NZ...

No - I'm not offended at all?

[Edbear]

No - I'm not offended at all?

I don't think he realised I had just agreed with your post hence the inference.

[Banditbandit]

Oh he was very well known and the reason he was murdered was his exposing the hypocrisy of the Jewish Pharisees, so they broke their own laws and organised to have him tried for sedition, however, while Pilate found him innocent, he nevertheless handed him over to the Jews for death, probably in fear of causing a ruckus that would bring the Roman Govt. into it. He placated the Jews to preserve the peace.

Christ started the Christian congregation and by the time Paul came along it was well established, he just proved a force for advancing it.

[Edbear]

I think this thread can be dumped in PD now...

[Akzle]

I disagree - I think we are on the verge of another age of empires.

... Essentially feudalism.

Nationalism - no - empire building yes. My prediction? The USA and Russia are the new Romes and entering the Cesar era.. The republican dream is dying.

i don't. i've heard white-capitalist history analalalalloguised to the great battles of old. where first is the cannon, then the archers, the cavalry charge... down to the age we are in now: the melée - every man for himself.

[RDJ]

i don't. i've heard white-capitalist history analalalalloguised to the great battles of old. where first is the cannon, then the archers, the cavalry charge... down to the age we are in now: the melée - every man for himself.

What're the differences from grey-, green- and mauve-capitalism?