Why work? A couple from the UK asks

[Banditbandit]

Just to clairfy, whats the non maori asset base?

Unsure ... you can use google just as well as I can ..

And does 'the biggest group' mean they are just the largest asset holders by group,or that they own a majority of the total?

The former - largest assest hlder group - as I understand Fonterra ownership - one farm = one share

He was probably drawing the parallel to the sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw. Only a minority of maoris have this of course...

He was being a typical ignorant racist perpetrating racial stereotyping ...

But I don't get this - "sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw" - what do you mean by that ???

[Banditbandit]

They actually are genuinely disadvantaged, the dole option was there right through their upbringing and education, even then providing reassurance that if they failed in anything they'd still be OK. If they'd been introduced to real world cause and effect examples 10 years ago they may well have been a bit more motivated to achieve.



It's not simplistic at all. But you wheel that out every chance you get, and it's just plain wrong.

If they can't get a job paying what they want it's because they want too much,

Yeah - I an agree with you to this pioint .. the system has set up this situation - and these people are taking advantage of that .. and yes, they want too much ..

The benefit system was designed as a safety net for those who need it - but it has become a system which provides a comfortable middle class life style for lazy bludgers ... cut the benfits back to subsistence level ... so even minimum wage pays more ... but that will only work if there are enough jobs in the economy - and right now there are not ...

same as most of the dole bludgers here.

Same as SOME dole bludgers here ..

[bogan]

Unsure ... you can use google just as well as I can ..




The former - largest assest hlder group - as I understadn Fonterra ownership - one farm = one share



He was being a typical ignorant racist perpetrating racial stereotyping ...

But I don't get this - "sense of entitlement due to what their ancestors have done btw" - what do you mean by that ???

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

Yeh probably he was, still an interesting parallel.
What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

[Banditbandit]

Just to clairfy, whats the non maori asset base? And does 'the biggest group' mean they are just the largest asset holders by group, or that they own a majority of the total?

OK . here's the whole report on the Māori economy in 2010

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/o...xpend-2011.pdf



I can't find a total assest base figure ... Try these for a comparison .. in 2010 our GDP was $162.40billion ... Māori enterprise earnings (business sector) in the same year were $22.2billion ... household earnings (workers) was $14.8billion ...

From the same report as I got these figures - not the same as the above report (http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/o...onomy-2012.pdf)

"Research commissioned by Te Puni Kökiri in 2010 on Māori Science and Innovation found successful alignment with the needs of Māori entities would potentially lead to:

• an additional $12 billion per annum in GDP for the Māori economy by 2061

• an additional 150,000 jobs per annum in New Zealand’s economy by 2061

• more than 50,000 of these jobs in professional occupations

• approximately 30,000 of these jobs in skilled trades

• a boost to New Zealand’s per capita GDP of between $4,800 tob $7,500 per annum by 2061

• an expansion of New Zealand’s export sector by an additional $12 billion by 2061."

And racist people in this country continue to call us dole bludgers, and people waiting for handouts ... These kinds of figures give the lie to that ..

[Ocean1]

Yes it is. X people - Y jobs = X people who have to claim dole to earn money to live. The only reason you see it as not being simplistic, is because you complicate it with reasons as to why the unemployed should be working.

It's not simple enough. If they're not working and they could be then the natural consequences of their decision is that they starve. Nice and simple.

The complexity of a system that makes someone else responsible for their decision is beyond belief, some people even imagine that work isn't needed in order to survive. Indeed, one or two benighted imbeciles conclude that not only is work not nescessary but that money isn't the natural product of work and can be dispensed with altogether.

Like I said, they're worth what they earn, if they can't find a job that pays what they want then the fault's not that of any lack of jobs, the fact is they're not worth the pay they want. That's the simple answer, right there: TANSTFL.

Now fuck off and work some more, there's more bludgers that're going to be needing a larger house soon.

[Zedder]

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

Yeh probably he was, still an interesting parallel.
What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

Hoi, I resent the reference to research not catching on around here. I do research, I like it actually, always have done, it's good to get the facts. Bloody engineers...

[Banditbandit]

Yeh, but I like to encourage the poster to do the relevant research, though that'll never catch on around here.

See - all good things come to those who are patient and wait ...

Well if its the former, then it doesn't mean there are more maori farmers than non-maori at all. (I'm not sure if fontera still run that shareholder policy btw)

I never claimed they were a majority - or that Māori farmers out-numbered non-Māori ... the point I am trying to make is that Māori are not siting around on the dole or with their hands out - we are making significant contributions to the New Zealand economy - working hard and paying taxes .. sure there are Māori on the dole .. and so are non-Māori on the dole ...

Did you know that as a percetange of the population, a higher percentage of Māōri are in tertiary education than non-Māōri? So a higher percentage of Māori are tryign to gain qualificiations and do better in life than the percentage of non-Māori who are?

and yet we get slammed with the same racist dole bludger criticism ...

What I mean is the way some maori are all about trying to claim a bunch of assets, instead of just working for a living, cos their ancestors did some things...

Hmm ... I see it from the point of view that we are claiming reparation for the unjustified acts of the past by the European-derived people who came here post 1800 .... Imagine if we had not lost so much of our land in the colonizing process - where would we be today? (and don't say still running around in grass skirts - that's becoming such a laughable response ... )

[Banditbandit]

Now let's get back to the actual point of the thread ..

The system has created a situation where people can earn more from benefits than from jobs ... and stupid/greedy/lazy people take advantage of that ...

There will always be stupid/greed/lazy people - we can't change that - so let's change the system that allows them to prosper ...

I find it also incredibly stupid that student allownace pays less than the dole ... so if a person on the dole wants to become a student to get a job - then they have to take a cut in income .. what sort of incentive is that ??? Heaps stay on the dole and get more money ..

Let's change all that ... (I'd even think about voting National if they ever come up with a better benefit scheme - one that assists peope who really need it .. but doesn't allow this situation .. )

PS Note that I said "think about votiong National" - thats not a promise to actually do it ..

[bogan]

OK . here's the whole report on the Māori economy in 2010

http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/o...xpend-2011.pdf



I can't find a total assest base figure ... Try these for a comparison .. in 2010 our GDP was $162.40billion ... Māori enterprise earnings (business sector) in the same year were $22.2billion ... household earnings (workers) was $14.8billion ...

From the same report as I got these figures - not the same as the above report (http://www.tpk.govt.nz/en/in-print/o...onomy-2012.pdf)

"Research commissioned by Te Puni Kökiri in 2010 on Māori Science and Innovation found successful alignment with the needs of Māori entities would potentially lead to:

• an additional $12 billion per annum in GDP for the Māori economy by 2061

• an additional 150,000 jobs per annum in New Zealand’s economy by 2061

• more than 50,000 of these jobs in professional occupations

• approximately 30,000 of these jobs in skilled trades

• a boost to New Zealand’s per capita GDP of between $4,800 tob $7,500 per annum by 2061

• an expansion of New Zealand’s export sector by an additional $12 billion by 2061."

And racist people in this country continue to call us dole bludgers, and people waiting for handouts ... These kinds of figures give the lie to that ..

Jeez you're easily offended, I said some were always looking for handouts, why do you try and defend those people by giving me figures about the other ones who are doing something useful.

Bottom line, if somebody is able but too lazy to work (or otherwise do something useful with their time), and feels that other people have an obligation to support them. Then I won't respect them. Regardless of whether they are taking advantage of the UK welfare system, NZ's Dole, DPB, treaty claims, or whatever. Surely we can agree on that?

[Banditbandit]

Bottom line, if somebody is able but too lazy to work (or otherwise do something useful with their time), and feels that other people have an obligation to support them. Then I won't respect them. Regardless of whether they are taking advantage of the UK welfare system, NZ's Dole, DPB, treaty claims, or whatever. Surely we can agree on that?

I swapped aroudn the order .. Fuck Yes - we can and do agree on that .. I dont respect them either ... but we can't change the people easily - we CAN change the system so they don't take advantage of it so easily ..

Jeez you're easily offended, I said some were always looking for handouts, why do you try and defend those people by giving me figures about the other ones who are doing something useful.

Yeah .. I am a bit tetchy - been listening to racist crap all my life and get a little testy on it ... the evidence shows that Māori are contributing to the econmy - on a significant scale ... the racist cocksuckers refuse to see it juist keep perpetrating the same racist bullshit (and wonder why we get pissed off at them) ... just watch as others come in and comment ...

[ducatilover]

Lots of handbags in here!

Mashy, hypothetical X and Y situation:
When X = 1000 people and Y = 800 jobs
If 200 more jobs are created, what happens to the 500 people working for WINZ?

[mashman]

It's not simple enough. If they're not working and they could be then the natural consequences of their decision is that they starve. Nice and simple.

The complexity of a system that makes someone else responsible for their decision is beyond belief, some people even imagine that work isn't needed in order to survive. Indeed, one or two benighted imbeciles conclude that not only is work not nescessary but that money isn't the natural product of work and can be dispensed with altogether.

Like I said, they're worth what they earn, if they can't find a job that pays what they want then the fault's not that of any lack of jobs, the fact is they're not worth the pay they want. That's the simple answer, right there: TANSTFL.

Now fuck off and work some more, there's more bludgers that're going to be needing a larger house soon.

I get it, I really do. Once upon a not so long ago I thought in exactly the same way. I don't anymore. Yes the reality would be that they should starve and die because they don't work. That'll get messy, very, very messy. Failing that, you'll end up paying even more for keeping them in prison... unless you'd like some form of Sharia Law brought in.

Making someone else responsible for their decision? Eh? How does that work? The system is a set up to avoid the chaos of a world where millions of jobs really aren't really required. There are many jobs that are counter-productive to resource usage, environment etc... but that's another story and one that is also based in undebunkable fact... however as long as your world view allows you to sleep at nights, I say go for it chum.

Awesome. It's not the job that has shit pay, it's that the person doing the job is shit. That'll be troll then. That or that's one of them thar GOLD moments that can never be relived.

Will do and am doing... the man needs his pound of flesh.

[mashman]

Lots of handbags in here!

Mashy, hypothetical X and Y situation:
When X = 1000 people and Y = 800 jobs
If 200 more jobs are created, what happens to the 500 people working for WINZ?

... the same as what happens to those who are replaced by technology... but you're being ridiculous, they system is sound, just blame the people for losing their jobs... after all they must deserve it for having been shit.

[ducatilover]

Starve and die without a job?

FFS, can't anyone grow their own food these days? Are people this fucking retarded.

[ducatilover]

... the same as what happens to those who are replaced by technology... but you're being ridiculous, they system is sound, just blame the people for losing their jobs... after all they must deserve it for having been shit.

I should never doubt the system.

We need to creat moar jobz, John Key said he was doing this.
I haven't seen any nice new jobs?