Sidecar Racing

[scrivy]

To make it fair you need to use your knee to block the intake

Nah, Bob uses his hand for that!

[jellywrestler]

Hi Spyda,

At a non-MNZ meeting, there is only a requirement for scrutineering, not a technical inspection.

that depends entirely on the insurance companies requirements and what the club chooses to do and varies from meet to meet i'm picking...

[scrivy]

that depends entirely on the insurance companies requirements and what the club chooses to do and varies from meet to meet i'm picking...

Well there is that.............

[scrivy]

what rule have they changed?

RULE:
Sidecars shall be fitted with at least two efficient brakes operation on at least two of the wheels, with at least two separate operational circuits irrespective of their method of operation. If one system fails the other system shall work efficiently.


The way I see it, is if one of your master cylinders fails, why should we be having to open the bleed nipple on the good caliper to see if there is no impediment to its operation? What the rule says is if one fails, the other shall work. It doesn't say to render that one useless also.
The pedal travel in most sidecars when both cylinders fail is probably about 6-10 inches at the foot. So cutting a massive amount of space out behind the foot is only going to give the passenger somewhere to rest his knee or foot and impede the brake pedal.....

Also, the rule says two separate systems. How is using a common lever and a common lever pivot point separate?? If the lever snapped (my torque arm did) or the lever pivot bolt wound out or broke, you automatically have a ride to the hospital.

Oh, the rule also says each cylinder is to have it's own reservour too. Most don't.

Also, who says a rear and side brake will slow you enough to avoid an accident? Ever tried slowing a sports bike from 200km using only the rear brake?

There's also the problem of fitting an emergency front brake to the chair. Most emergency brakes won't stop you in the pits! But if you have one, it negates having to worry about the shared foot master cylinder issue.

I'm all for absolute safety, but I would have thought a little more nutting out of this should have been required before we are told that you will not get to race.

[Drew]

RULE:
Sidecars shall be fitted with at least two efficient brakes operation on at least two of the wheels, with at least two separate operational circuits irrespective of their method of operation. If one system fails the other system shall work efficiently.


The way I see it, is if one of your master cylinders fails, why should we be having to open the bleed nipple on the good caliper to see if there is no impediment to its operation? What the rule says is if one fails, the other shall work. It doesn't say to render that one useless also.
The pedal travel in most sidecars when both cylinders fail is probably about 6-10 inches at the foot. So cutting a massive amount of space out behind the foot is only going to give the passenger somewhere to rest his knee or foot and impede the brake pedal.....

Also, the rule says two separate systems. How is using a common lever and a common lever pivot point separate?? If the lever snapped (my torque arm did) or the lever pivot bolt wound out or broke, you automatically have a ride to the hospital.

Oh, the rule also says each cylinder is to have it's own reservour too. Most don't.

Also, who says a rear and side brake will slow you enough to avoid an accident? Ever tried slowing a sports bike from 200km using only the rear brake?

There's also the problem of fitting an emergency front brake to the chair. Most emergency brakes won't stop you in the pits! But if you have one, it negates having to worry about the shared foot master cylinder issue.

I'm all for absolute safety, but I would have thought a little more nutting out of this should have been required before we are told that you will not get to race.

I read the rule, to mean each brake has to operate at least two wheels. Which is slightly problematic.

Anyway, the rule is apparently unchanged. They just intend to enforce it again. Which fucks a lot of long chairs right up.

Completely separate operation is easy, fitting another slave to rear or chair wheel is inviting some dodgy engineering in a lot of cases I'll bet. Not for us though, we've got that shit covered!

[Fast Eddie]

I don't see the problem really..

there are bias/twin master cyl setups that make sure that one circuit will always operate. Will photograph some of phils dads rally/targa car setups when I get to chch end of the week, apparently they do the trick and if one fails u still get full use of the other one. And will test our own on agip bike which I believe will still operates a master cyl effectivly even if one is removed/out of action.

and if you can't get a twin master cyl setup so it can't fail then yea, bolt another caliper and hand brake onto the front disc..

[Fast Eddie]

I read the rule, to mean each brake has to operate at least two wheels. Which is slightly problematic.

Where did you read that?

I read, outfit must have minimum of one brake for the front and rear wheel, and if there is a brake on the sidewheel it must be operated by the rear brake.. something like that.

[Fast Eddie]

Yee ha! Paeroa in 2 weeks, can't wait to see everyone going hard!! We will get up there Saturday night and try link up with the sidecar fam

Just incase anyone hasn't seen the official letter, or for any visitors to the thread..

http://www.mnz.co.nz/news/news-detai...ar-competitors

We have a potential problem with some brake set ups which we need to address urgently. We must be proactive in checking for and fixing any problems relating to safety, this is extremely important for the safety of yourselves, fellow competitors, the viewing public and the sports future.

Where outfits are using two master cylinders with a pivoting balance bar arrangement if the geometry of the set up is not correct or there is other faults, what can and has happened is if one of the cylinders loses or boils it’s fluid it is possible that when brake pedal is pushed further that due to a mechanical jamming, binding of other restriction the good cylinder CANNOT be depressed / activated. This contravenes rule
# 27.6.2a "if one system fails the other shall work efficiently ".

You will all need to check that there is no mechanical hindrance or binding in any way in any of the brake lever/pedal set up which would stop the levers travel should either or both cylinders fail. The best way to check this is to open a bleeder on a calliper for one cylinder and push the lever and make sure there is no binding and the other cylinder is able to operate correctly and repeat this for the other cylinder and then do both cylinders at once. With both cylinders fully depressed the foot operated pedal should still be able to travel a small amount further. There must be NO reason why either or both cylinders cannot be FULLY depressed.

Also on any brake set up the cylinder must be able to be FULLY depressed without any hindrance. Please check your outfit in the manner above and make all of the modifications if required

All bikes will need to be checked by a MNZ technical steward or scrutineer in the above manner and signed off before their next race and noted in the log book. This will become part of the two yearly check.

We will be checking all outfits at Paeroa and noting as such in the log books as such you will need the appropriate bleeding tools, hoses and fluid required for your outfit also as this may take some time we thank you in advance for your patience.

There will be NO leeway given as this is a very serious issue so if you can all check and correct if required BEFORE the meetings this will help you being a rider and not a spectator.

We have endeavoured to send this to all competitors, but please forward this on to any one you can.

If you wish to contact me to discuss this or if I can be of any help please do so

Regards

Ian Staples
MNZ Technical Steward, Sidecar

063423786
0273746001
irstaples@clear.net.nz

[old rig]

Bit of stress in the household today, trying to work out how to fix a sidecar that isint broken, with regard to the brake rule, which appears to be a bit of a moving goal post at the moment.
We have a factory built outfit with an extremely fine pedigree, that im not about to rip into modifying & probably effectively making it worse, in a rush, two weeks out from a meeting.
I wonder if anyone else is having the same problem?

yep we had the same problem we got round it buy putting the caplier off the front off my mountain bike on to the sidecar it stops my mountain bike good and now we have two independent braking systems

[Drew]

Where did you read that?

I read, outfit must have minimum of one brake for the front and rear wheel, and if there is a brake on the sidewheel it must be operated by the rear brake.. something like that.

Sidecars shall be fitted with at least two efficient brakes operation on at least two of the wheels, with at least two separate operational circuits irrespective of their method of operation. If one system fails the other system shall work efficiently.

Two efficient systems, operating two wheels, independent of one and other.

That's my reading of it. Unfortunately the writer of the rules seems to have failed school certificate comprehension. The use of correct punctuation in the written English language, has made many a lawyer's career I'm sure.

I can see that there's an argument suggesting that should one master fail, on the common bias system, that so long as the other one still works anyway unlike the housebus, it is two systems that work irrespective of the others operation.

But how do you prove it? Bleed your brakes at scrutineering every time you race? I'm kinda all for that actually, since I firmly believe brake fluid should be replaced every meeting.

[Fast Eddie]

Sidecars shall be fitted with at least two efficient brakes operation on at least two of the wheels, with at least two separate operational circuits irrespective of their method of operation. If one system fails the other system shall work efficiently.

Two efficient systems, operating two wheels, independent of one and other..

true, all down to the interpretation.

I just read it as, you need at least one brake on the front and one on the rear, you gotta have at least 2 master cylinders and if one fails the other one should still work. (twin master cyls with bias or a seperate hand operated cyl)

I didn't get too carried away with interpreting the operating 2 wheels bit...

We will just refresh our setup on the agip bike as it as, with twin masters that can work if one fails. plus the hand brake.. It should pass the check I think.

As for bleeding every meeting, thats fine thanks to TransDiesel CHCH who supply me with lovely Agip brake fluid.. www.transdiesel.com

Mo Haley told me they never bothered bleeding the brakes much, apparently vince or dave used to make little inserts out of carbon fibre and just slip them inbetween the brake pads and pistons to remove any pedal travel. He said I should be doing the same..

[Drew]

Mo Haley told me they never bothered bleeding the brakes much, apparently vince or dave used to make little inserts out of carbon fibre and just slip them inbetween the brake pads and pistons to remove any pedal travel. He said I should be doing the same..

The only advantage there, is less heat being transferred to the piston and fluid. If one has to pack out the pads, something isn't working right.

Surprises me that Mr Haley encourages the practice really, it is a symptom fix, not a problem solved I think.

[Fast Eddie]

Surprises me that Mr Haley encourages the practice really, it is a symptom fix, not a problem solved I think.

think the idea was just to stop having that few millimeters of free travel before the brakes really bite. rather than trying to bleed out the free travel all the time as the pads wear down, just slip a finger, er I mean thing in.

might try it out sometime.. need some sheets of thin carbon fibre first.

[Drew]

think the idea was just to stop having that few millimeters of free travel before the brakes really bite. rather than trying to bleed out the free travel all the time as the pads wear down, just slip a finger, er I mean thing in.

might try it out sometime.. need some sheets of thin carbon fibre first.

Ya need a better understanding of how the brakes actually work mate. As pads wear down, they don't force the fluid back as far on release. No air gets into the system that wasn't there at the beginning, and there should never be a gap between the pads and the piston.

[nodrog:Me]

Does one have to go through all this drama if one has a seperate hand operated brake system?

A definative answer from somebody whos in the know might help, ie not kai or drew.