Coming to a town near you, like it or not!

[Banditbandit]

Where does the money for social welfare come from. Is it tied to employment?

It's only an important consideration because of money. It's that simple. Remove money from your scenario and what are you left with?

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.


If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

[Edbear]

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.


If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

LOL!! Could be right there...

[mashman]

Taxes - the money comes from taxes .... which is tied to employment through the PAYE system, and tied to profits throught he Company Tax syustem ... as well as to spending power through GST as the more we spend the more GST (taxes) we pay.

If you remove money from the system you are left wth direct battering ... for goods and for services .. can you imagine carrying enough potatoes onto K-Road to pay for services there ...

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.

LOL!! Could be right there...

Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules. As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through

[Edbear]

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.



Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules. As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.

[mashman]

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.

hmmmmm, does that void my post

[Edbear]

hmmmmm, does that void my post

I still believe that until you get the general populace into altruism, any system is going to have problems.

It's not the monetary system or otherwise that is the issue, but people's greed for wealth and power. Currently wealth is measured by the dollar, but whatever you replace it with, people will still seek to dominate and rise above their fellow.

[Banditbandit]

So can you take me back to the bit where you're disconnecting money and employment again? Actually, don't, as we both know that that isn't true. My only concern is that if this is how Social Credit is supposed to "solve" the issues, then it's not exactly off to a good start in regards to a point of difference from the current system. Following Social Credit money through that system constantly leads to the same places that capitalism (et al) does. Essentially nothing changes other than how money is values and produced. It still has the same social pitfalls, same environmental pitfalls and still looks to be open to the same financial pitfalls.

Yash .. naa bro .. because all "work" is not equal in time it takes . ad materials needed ... If I spend one hour fixing a bike for a mate do I accept one hour's work in exchange or do I demand two hours work ??? Two hours of what it would take me to do a job or two hours of what it migfht take my mate (who is highly qualified and experienced in the job I want in exchange)

Are you left with bartering? rather not battering, although if we're talking fish there I'm with you, albeit if all that is left is battering, motorcycles are gonna look pretty fuckin weird. Anyhoo, why do you need to barter? if everyone accepts that as long as production exists (i.e. people keep working), then everyone will be fed, watered, electrified, amongst many other seriously cool advances spanning just about every interest a human being could have, then there's no need for any system of exchange to be in place, it'll just happen. How's about not financially valuing effort, goods, services etc... other than are they scarce and can we spare them to produce toys? Money/Value only ever complicates things and we can witness that in every day life. True story.

I like the idea .. Have you read Ursula's Le Guin's The Dispossessed? But human nature is against you, I am sorry to say .. much as I would like it to be otherwise ..

Then again he could just be another cynical old cunt that has a limited capacity for believing that certain things are possible because they couldn't conceive of themselves living by such rules.

Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. (See the sentences a coupel of centimetres above - huiman nature ... )

As an ex-member of the cynical cunt club, I know that it doesn't have to be that way. Yet again, another true story. It's quite funny when you explain it to cynical old cunts and watch them grasp the concept entirely before accepting that they would live by those rules. It's a simple decision. I'm here to help you get through

There's a big difference between the rules I live by and what I say here and what I see happening around me .. I'll still be a cycnical old cunt ....

[Banditbandit]

I was laughing at his using the word battering instead of bartering.

hmmmmm, does that void my post

Yes .. my fingers never learnt to spelll .. and no, it doesn't void your post ...

(sometimes this cynical old cunt just wants to BATTER fuckwits ... I know that won't teach them anything ... but it would certainly make me feel better ..)

And yes .. altrusim would be BRILLIANT .. sorry to say this cynical old cunt thinks NEVER HAPPEN ...

[mashman]

Yash .. naa bro .. because all "work" is not equal in time it takes . ad materials needed ... If I spend one hour fixing a bike for a mate do I accept one hour's work in exchange or do I demand two hours work ??? Two hours of what it would take me to do a job or two hours of what it migfht take my mate (who is highly qualified and experienced in the job I want in exchange)

Dood, Time banking is still a valuation imho and whilst a great concept, still open to rort and still highly questionable, as you highlight, in regards to quantifying the effort. Some work is more manually intensive, some is more mental intensive, some requires a higher degree of skill, some can be done by a machine (probably get machines to do that work), some if a halfway house between skill, braun and brains, okay a third way house. Tying ourselves up in knots over who's output is more important is kinda silly given that all output is important. If he's doing his job without being paid (coz there's no cash), then he probably enjoys it and accepts the hours that come with it.

I like the idea .. Have you read Ursula's Le Guin's The Dispossessed? But human nature is against you, I am sorry to say .. much as I would like it to be otherwise ..

I'm a painfully slow reader and tend to shy away from having to do so. FINALLY we get to the crux and here's an answer I prepared earlier ... human nature is bullshit. Yes we display certain traits and we call it human nature. Yet me being a human being, I'm pretty sure I am, I have gone from plodding through life capitalist to wanting NOW, as have many others. Human nature is a decision that we take given the circumstances presented and there is no guarantee that we will react in a prescribed way, hence someone doing something out of character. So I'm calling bullshit in regards to human nature. Of the people I have offered the alternative to so far, the majority have said that they would accept that alternative. yes it takes a little convincing, primarily as people don't know what they don't know. You offer the alternative, they make a "reasoned" choice. In that respect your "human nature" hasn't been tested yet. Once upon a time the majority of human beings embraced slavery, deplored homosexuality, worked to a gold standard, discovered electricity, created a social welfare system etc... human nature? or making a decision based on the need for something to change?

Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. (See the sentences a coupel of centimetres above - huiman nature ... )

I understand that and have gleaned such from your posts... and to a huge degree I agree... and to a huge degree realise that I'm in the stupid zone, but this is easy enough for everyone to understand should they be allowed to hear it. It won't stop people from being stupid I'm afraid, but it'll allow them the opportunity to be less so.

There's a big difference between the rules I live by and what I say here and what I see happening around me .. I'll still be a cycnical old cunt ....

That wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

[oldrider]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what could be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! Err pass me that swat. Time to swat a few (tricky) flies!

[mashman]

I still believe that until you get the general populace into altruism, any system is going to have problems.

It's not the monetary system or otherwise that is the issue, but people's greed for wealth and power. Currently wealth is measured by the dollar, but whatever you replace it with, people will still seek to dominate and rise above their fellow.

That may well be the case. Although one could argue that you need the "promise" of a system in order to eek out the altruistic behaviour in those who usually wouldn't. Coz in the meantime, they have to work and every cent counts. There's also a huge chunk of the populace that don't really give a shit as long as they're taken care of. I am wholly happy with that as that is a side effect of an RBE. You are looked after irrespective and anything else is gravy.

You're describing a minority there Ed. This is why people queue. This is why we have a country where 55% (reportedly) of the population are a drag on the economy etc... Given the right circumstances a different set of predominant behaviours will rise. It's an easy experiment to undertake and one that young kids live until they know differently. A changed world in a generation? You betcha. In regards to power etc... sure there'll be those who want to exert influence etc... but it'll be by far harder a thing to achieve where there is no money. My employer has power over me because they pay me money. People go to war because they get paid to do so. People lie and cheat and thieve and murder and divorce and have kids etc... because of money. Without that control mechanism (which is exactly what it is and not in an oh it's an exchange mechanism way) the rules of society can change so that the majority can actually rule for the sake of the majority.

[mashman]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what COULDN'T be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! Err pass me that swat. Time to swat a few (tricky) flies!

Bang the fuck on John!

True. And for those times where we all agree, there's budget constraint.

Absolutely, which is why I try to be careful with the ideas I put up, because there are some viable "ideas" that could be used in the current environment that wouldn't be of benefit (to the people) under the current system.

... oh how I wish.

[scissorhands]

If mankind can achieve so much despite the handicap of a financial system that works against us, what could be achieved with a system that works for us?

I believe we all want the same thing but we spend too much time arguing about how to get it done!

While independent lateral thinking is highly valuable and desirable, it does allow the enemy a chance to work undetected when we are distracted by the task in hand.

As Confucius said, open the window, you are bound to let in a few flies! Err pass me that swat. Time to swat a few (tricky) flies!

thou speakest wisely, Oldy

Strong good leadership is all we really need and want.
Instead we waste our time bickering.
The spirit in NZ is weak
From double dealing dishonest leaders
we have an insecure people
Much like a child watching his parents argue over nothing
But in an individual who remains aloof of the bickering
such as thou
Tis as strong as ever

[Banditbandit]

FINALLY we get to the crux and here's an answer I prepared earlier ... human nature is bullshit. Yes we display certain traits and we call it human nature. Yet me being a human being, I'm pretty sure I am, I have gone from plodding through life capitalist to wanting NOW, as have many others. Human nature is a decision that we take given the circumstances presented and there is no guarantee that we will react in a prescribed way, hence someone doing something out of character. So I'm calling bullshit in regards to human nature. Of the people I have offered the alternative to so far, the majority have said that they would accept that alternative. yes it takes a little convincing, primarily as people don't know what they don't know. You offer the alternative, they make a "reasoned" choice. In that respect your "human nature" hasn't been tested yet. Once upon a time the majority of human beings embraced slavery, deplored homosexuality, worked to a gold standard, discovered electricity, created a social welfare system etc... human nature? or making a decision based on the need for something to change?

I'm reminded of an interview I saw about 15 years ago of two Russian businessmen who were born after the October Revolution and grew up in Soviet Russia. They had bought state industries during the privatisation period ...

Both were asked about their workforce and both said that their work force was a lazy bunch of useless "people" (they used a very impolite word) .. one of them said "You have to beat the workers to get them to do anything".

I was shocked at the time .. that two people who had NOT grown up under a Capitalists system, with all it's inherent hegemonic processes, had that attitude towards the workforce ... 70 years of a Soviet state and the worst employer attitude resurfaces in an instant !!!

So .. I do like your ideas ... but I think that humans carry a very strong self-preservation gene (as do all life forms) which includes a competative element ... (watch a pack of animals competing wth other packs for territory) and with some intelligence aded, self-preservation and competativeness very very easily becomes self-interest ...

BUT I am not really as cynical as my communications make out (and yes, I do express cynical views outside this forum) .. I do have faith in the future - I have always actively tried to change the world .. firstly it was an active involvement in radical politics (Doh .. that's a very slow change process and very frustrating) and now work in education .. because every year I get new students whose lives I can directly impact on ... hopefully they will go out and create a better future ...

But hey .. I'm amused by the cynical old cunt stance I've adopted/become ... so that's unlikely to change

[scumdog]

Naaa .. I'm a cynical old cunt because I discovered that people were too stupid, adn/or too self centred, and too greedy to actually behave in a reasonable manner towards each other .. and every day in KB I am proved right .. .

What he said!

And not just on KB.