Stupid World

[mashman]

Not directly, but that is what you were talking about, even if your scientific illiteracy prevented you from seeing that.

2) How is bringing in pre-prepared hydrogen different to bringing in petrol?

3) Yes, but at about a quarter of other energy transfer mediums

4) We don't have a plentiful energy supply, therefor efficiency is of great importance

5) I has been answered numerous times, its vastly more efficient to bring out petrol, as it results in a net gain instead of a net loss.

Phew, thanks for letting me know what I couldn't see .

2) That was an example of what a guy was doing in a vid, not what I was talking about earlier (i.e. dynam, sola cell etc...)

3) Fair enough, but the tech is getting better whilst oil EROI is getting worse... as you and Fergus say, there are better emergency measures, I was just looking at 1.

4) psssst... banks and their super computers aren't a good use of such a precious resource. I wish it were about energy conservation, but we both know that it ain't.

5) Ok ok ok, I believe you guys. I'd like to see some proof though before I eat my humble pie.

The thing you're not factoring in, is that the "black stuff" we pull out of the ground doesn't just make petrol and diesel. There's heating oil, propane and butane, a bunch of different solvents, all the lubricants in your bike, the tyres on it, anything plastic...

Fuck me, really? Am I not taking it into account? Tis why I'd love to know what goes into calculating the EROI.

You've had it, several times. As of a few years ago the energy budget for extracting and refining petroleum based fuels was under 5% of the total energy produced. The cost of splitting hydrogen from water depends on the method but it's likely to take 10 to 40 times as much energy to produce.

Happy?

Has the EROI changed much? Can you point me to a source that lists what the EROI is measuring?

[bogan]

Phew, thanks for letting me know what I couldn't see .

2) That was an example of what a guy was doing in a vid, not what I was talking about earlier (i.e. dynam, sola cell etc...)

3) Fair enough, but the tech is getting better whilst oil EROI is getting worse... as you and Fergus say, there are better emergency measures, I was just looking at 1.

4) psssst... banks and their super computers aren't a good use of such a precious resource. I wish it were about energy conservation, but we both know that it ain't.

2) So you have to bring hydrogen production gear in as well as dynamo/solar etc? Why not just bring the later and use its electricity directly

3) They're still miles apart, and as we keep saying, hydrogen will never be an energy source, its simply a transfer medium. Oil is a source.

4) bank super computers are an energy user, as in they do not transfer energy on so alway 0% transfer energy efficient. You're talking about a low efficiency energy storage/transfer system which would decrease the work efficiency of every energy user down the line.

[mashman]

2) So you have to bring hydrogen production gear in as well as dynamo/solar etc? Why not just bring the later and use its electricity directly

3) They're still miles apart, and as we keep saying, hydrogen will never be an energy source, its simply a transfer medium. Oil is a source.

4) bank super computers are an energy user, as in they do not transfer energy on so alway 0% transfer energy efficient. You're talking about a low efficiency energy storage/transfer system which would decrease the work efficiency of every energy user down the line.

2) Great if there is electricity to be used. As someone pointed out earlier, there may well be more pressing needs for the electricity. This things says "leaders like Andress Appolon, a Harvard-educated Haitian-American whom Martelly recently named as the first woman director of the Electricité d’Hati utility, a key reform post given that almost 90% of the population still has no access to electricity." electricity isn't a given. So yes, you'd have to carry in whatever mechanisms you require.

3) I get that, I do, but that is changing from what I've read. Apparently they've got plankton to produce hydrogen, which I would assume is quite efficient. Likely a tech that's a long way away, but there are others working on all sorts of methods because they realise that it could well be sustainable in the future. Who knows, maybe we would have been further down the line had hydrogen generation been viewed as a worthwhile pursuit.

4) That may well be the case, but it's better than nothing in regards to cost/benefit/resource availability?

[bogan]

2) Great if there is electricity to be used. As someone pointed out earlier, there may well be more pressing needs for the electricity. This things says "leaders like Andress Appolon, a Harvard-educated Haitian-American whom Martelly recently named as the first woman director of the Electricité d’Hati utility, a key reform post given that almost 90% of the population still has no access to electricity." electricity isn't a given. So yes, you'd have to carry in whatever mechanisms you require.

3) I get that, I do, but that is changing from what I've read. Apparently they've got plankton to produce hydrogen, which I would assume is quite efficient. Likely a tech that's a long way away, but there are others working on all sorts of methods because they realise that it could well be sustainable in the future. Who knows, maybe we would have been further down the line had hydrogen generation been viewed as a worthwhile pursuit.

4) That may well be the case, but it's better than nothing in regards to cost/benefit/resource availability?

2) Exactly, there are more pressing needs for it than wasting it generating hydrogen, so any solar or dynamo stuff you bring in should be applied to those same endevours

3) Nobody is saying it isn't a worthwhile pursuit, just that in its current state its completely shit

4) Well yeh its better than nothing, but it isn't better than what we have already got, which is in most countries a nationwide electrical grid, or batteries with less than a third the energy transfer losses of hydrogen for portable stuff.

[avgas]

Hand crank dynamos for everyone!


That will replace the horrible petrol.

[unstuck]

Wind up cars and bikes, now theres and idea. Instead of gas stations we could have wind up stations, with heaps of big mussely pricks waiting to give you a wind up.

[Ocean1]

Has the EROI changed much? Can you point me to a source that lists what the EROI is measuring?

I haven't menttioned economic factors. On a purely energy-in, energy-out basis burning oil produces a 95% net positive gain. Producing Hydrogen fuel from water isn't even in the same ballpark.

I did know something of the breakdown on costs associated with those processes, but it's likely to be out of date: the cost of fuel oil production has dropped in the last decade or so and the most economic methods of producing hydrogen have changed.

If you want to get all excited about hydrogen as a fuel then figure out how to collect it from Saturn, it masses almost 100 times the earth and it's more or less made of hydrogen. You've just got to go get it.

[gwigs]

[unstuck]

Must spread......Your as fucken nutty as me.

[Fergus]

Wind up cars and bikes, now theres and idea. Instead of gas stations we could have wind up stations, with heaps of big mussely pricks waiting to give you a wind up.

The technology exists, just find and provide energy(food) to the winders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

.. as you and Fergus say, there are better emergency measures, I was just looking at 1.

Looking at one?? you came up with a ridiculous idea (distillation via rocket fuel production) obviously didn't even bother to think it through let alone do any research.

It then took you many, many posts before you realised the idea was totally illogical, unnecessarily complex, and extremely wasteful of energy I feel like I lost brain cells debating such a stupid idea But I'm glad you got there in the end

[bogan]

The technology exists, just find and provide energy(food) to the winders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

Ages ago someone had a 'bolt on' CVT flywheel for regen braking in cars which would then provide acceleration again when needed, think it was about 30hp for a 30kg unit. Quite a neat idea I thought, but haven't heard anything else about it.

[unstuck]

The technology exists, just find and provide energy(food) to the winders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flywheel_energy_storage

Cheers dude, that link led me to some cool bed time reading.

http://sciencewriter.org/flywheels-s...-into-control/

[gwigs]

Must spread......Your as fucken nutty as me.

Cheers Man I,m Honoured
Been Mad For Fucking Years....

[unstuck]

Ages ago someone had a 'bolt on' CVT flywheel for regen braking in cars which would then provide acceleration again when needed, think it was about 30hp for a 30kg unit. Quite a neat idea I thought, but haven't heard anything else about it.

Your lucky day then, have a look at the link in my last post.

[mashman]

2) Exactly, there are more pressing needs for it than wasting it generating hydrogen, so any solar or dynamo stuff you bring in should be applied to those same endevours

3) Nobody is saying it isn't a worthwhile pursuit, just that in its current state its completely shit

4) Well yeh its better than nothing, but it isn't better than what we have already got, which is in most countries a nationwide electrical grid, or batteries with less than a third the energy transfer losses of hydrogen for portable stuff.

@) Generating hydrogen from unclean water to collect clean water at the other end via some form of condenser giving people cleaner drinking water where an electrical supply may not be readily available and not to end up burning your next door neighbours tent to boil your water is a good thing in my eyes, irrespective of its efficiency.

#) See 2.

Doho) That may well be the case, but it's another thing to add to the armory innit.

I haven't menttioned economic factors. On a purely energy-in, energy-out basis burning oil produces a 95% net positive gain. Producing Hydrogen fuel from water isn't even in the same ballpark.

I did know something of the breakdown on costs associated with those processes, but it's likely to be out of date: the cost of fuel oil production has dropped in the last decade or so and the most economic methods of producing hydrogen have changed.

If you want to get all excited about hydrogen as a fuel then figure out how to collect it from Saturn, it masses almost 100 times the earth and it's more or less made of hydrogen. You've just got to go get it.

When I asked for "I'm still waiting for the answer in regards to which uses more energy, the getting the oil (including every single component required for the operation, donkey's, rigs, drills, transporation etc...) out of the ground v's splitting hydrogen from water. :" I meant everything. EROI seems to be the term I was looking for.

Looking at one?? you came up with a ridiculous idea (distillation via rocket fuel production) obviously didn't even bother to think it through let alone do any research.

It then took you many, many posts before you realised the idea was totally illogical, unnecessarily complex, and extremely wasteful of energy I feel like I lost brain cells debating such a stupid idea But I'm glad you got there in the end

It produces water, end of.

It's not illogical for the purpose I had in mind. You may grasp that at some point, but as you haven't so far, I'll not be holding my breath. Yes I have learned a few things about hydrogen from you, cheers, but you'd rather not waste the energy on producing water, but would rather it powered offices. You lost braincells coz you never paid attention in the first place, then went off half cocked, as others seem to like to do (again, thanks for that, it made me smile), and come back to pin it on me. I'll happily wear it, but I know what the real issue was