North Auckland Street Skills - NASS

[The End]

We had a young chap on a learner ride once that had heard about this slalom tyre warming bullshit...he had to pick his bike up off the road 100mts after leaving the lunch break, you may know him Phil, he had GSX250 back then and had been riding about 4 months.

I remember this, I wonder how warm the tyres got in that 100m though... Silly silly...

[p.dath]

Who would have thought that the method to change gears would provoke so many [good] comments.

[Maha]

Sure counter steering happens naturally when everything is working how your brain is expecting. This approach doesn't work when your brain is confronted with a new situation. It's just the way the human brain is built, and we can't change it.
When you are required to think for yourself you can't access those pre-stored "automatic" reactions. And if you don't know how to consciously counter-steer you won't.

Even the simple act of wanting to turning in tighter may not be able to be served by our sub-conscious brain if it hasn't learned this ability yet, and if that is the case, only the conscious brain will be able to respond.

When you lean into a corner, physics dictates that the leading arm/wrist/elbow combo will apply pressure to that bar, causing the front wheel to counter steer, it is not a conscious (sub or otherwise) decision.

[DanielM8]

When you lean into a corner, physics dictates that the leading arm/wrist/elbow combo will apply pressure to that bar, causing the front wheel to counter steer, it is not a conscious (sub or otherwise) decision.

I don't want to argue what you're saying, as you know a lot more than me, but after the counter-steering lesson at NASS, I began trying it on every ride i go on to try and understand it. You're right, it does happen naturally, however it's given me a lot more control being able to ALSO consciously apply counter steering, which I know would help me if I had to swerve around something (e.g a dog) at high speed.

[Maha]

I don't want to argue what you're saying, as you know a lot more than me, but after the counter-steering lesson at NASS, I began trying it on every ride i go on to try and understand it. You're right, it does happen naturally, however it's given me a lot more control being able to ALSO consciously apply counter steering, which I know would help me if I had to swerve around something (e.g a dog) at high speed.

Sure, making a conscious decision the weight either bar in a straight line in a car park will give you the sense of belief that it works, and it does, I am not denying that.

This from a posted a thread about 'Bum Steer' in 2008...

''I've been watching and reading all the countersteering threads of late and someone's comment "... if you're getting around corners, then you must be coutersteering, can't be done otherwise ..." has prompted me to post a counter-view on counter-steering.

I believe the countersteer that initiates the turn is a bad substitute for poor body position and technique. Hence "The Bum Steer". A turn that is initiated by loading up the "inside bum cheek" does not need counter steering input. Before the howls of Indignation and Outrage gather volume, I do agree that you can use small countersteering adjustments. I just don't agree that it is the only way to initiatre a turn ... back to The Bum Steer.

Watch the top racers, watch the best of them Casey Stoner. Their bodies are on the inside of the bike before they tip in for the corner. In other words, they have loaded up the inside bum cheek and their weight is on the inside of the bike. They are pushing the bars up to hold the bike straight waiting for the tip in. It is poised like a cat and being help up from falling into the corner. As soon as the tip in point is reached, the arms are relaxed and the bike falls into the corner using the weight of the rider. Power is applied to hold it from falling too far thus getting the power down early and the bike under perfect control for driving out of the turn.

Think about the dynamics of this. The counter-steer is using gyroscopic precession to apply a directional force from the application of opposing forces. Doing so unsettles the bike, you are applying a side-load to the front tyre that doesn't need to be there. The Bum Steer on the other hand is simply letting the bike fall into a position to cut the corner in a totally natural way. All the forces are acting in unision and towards the apex of the corner. If it didn't work, racers wouldn't be using it (watch the MotoGP slow motions to see it in action).

So, how does this apply to the road. Well I've been using the technique for a year and perfected it on my daily runs over Paekakariki Hill Rd - there's not a better test.

On the road it's not about getting off your seat (but I do that too), it's just about leaning your shoulders to the inside just a fraction as you approach the corner. This loads up the inside bum cheek. When you feel the apex has arrived (and with this technique you can go in much deeper) all you have to do is pull the bike down with you. It's fluid, very quick and brilliantly confidence-building.

The counter-steer by its very nature tips the bike into the corner but leaves the rider upright with the outside bum cheek loaded up! This puts the rider's weight in a place where it is trying to stand the bike up while everything else is trying to get around the corner. It just can't be right.

Again, this is not a Ban Countersteering message. I use it all the time for small adjustments and positioning but I truely believe it is a dangerous practice for tipping into corners - there's too much physics working against the natural dynamics of the bike. You can tell the obsessive counter-steerers, they're the ones who look like motorcrossers when you're following them on the road - body upright while they push the bike down in a desperate attempt to carver the corner.''

[p.dath]

...
This from a posted a thread about 'Bum Steer' in 2008...

''I've been watching and reading all the countersteering threads of late and someone's comment "... if you're getting around corners, then you must be coutersteering, can't be done otherwise ..." has prompted me to post a counter-view on counter-steering.

I believe the countersteer that initiates the turn is a bad substitute for poor body position and technique. Hence "The Bum Steer". A turn that is initiated by loading up the "inside bum cheek" does not need counter steering input. Before the howls of Indignation and Outrage gather volume, I do agree that you can use small countersteering adjustments. I just don't agree that it is the only way to initiatre a turn ... back to The Bum Steer.
...''

Maha, that article is full of misinformation. A chunk of it is just plain wrong.

I'm sure you have heard of Keith Code, head of the California Superbike School, and former professional motorcycle racer. He created something called the "No Bullshit" bike so that people who actually believe that post can prove themselves wrong. It simply has a second set of bars that you can't move. He then invites people to initiate a turn using their body weight. They can't. It's that simple.
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

Now if you Google long enough, you can actually find people you do in fact initiate turns using only body weight - but they are on heavily modified motorbikes especially created for performing stunts and tricks. They do not have normal motorcycle geometry.


Once above 30km/h, a motorcycle can only turn my moving weight to the inside of the centre of mass. The whole point of counter-steering is to tip the motorcycle over to move the weight to the inside of the centre of mass. If you simply move your weight to one side, without countersteering, the centre of mass does not move, and you continue to ride in a straight line. If you move your weight to one side, and then tip the motorcycle over using counter-steering then you will indeed turn more aggressively, because you are now tipping more weight over.

[nzspokes]

A good way to measure this and a point shown in Twist of the wrist is that kids that ride balance bicycles (bicycle with no pedals) learn to balance and turn get the skill needed to ride a standard kids bicycle far faster than a kid on a bike with trainer wheels. They learn to counter steer to turn.

[p.dath]

I'm thinking we are going to have high wind and rain tonight. So I'm thinking I wont be along tonight.

[The Reibz]

Yeah nah notttttttt keennnnnn

[DanielM8]

Yeah nah notttttttt keennnnnn

^ ditto

[GravelRashKid]

I'm still a starter. Weather doesn't look quite so bad at the moment...
Is anyone else going?

[Juniper]

.......pub?

[Easi]

Well, that does make the seat difficult to take off!

Yeah bit of a pain in the arse. There's a quick release mod I would do but I had a look and there's SFA storage space under there anyway.

For those with recently acquired CBR600F3's wondering about suspension adjustments, check out this guide:
http://www.gostar-racing.com/informa...ion_set-up.htm

Special Note: The PDF version has an error to do with sag measurement. Only use the HTML web site version.

Thanks very much!

.......pub?

Pub!

[The Singing Chef]

We had a young chap on a learner ride once that had heard about this slalom tyre warming bullshit...he had to pick his bike up off the road 100mts after leaving the lunch break, you may know him Phil, he had GSX250 back then and had been riding about 4 months.

Haha least I know it wasn't me, that's probably the only place I didn't crash my bike.

[Maha]

Haha least I know it wasn't me, that's probably the only place I didn't crash my bike.

Na wasn't you...same bike as your old one though. He went on to buy a 600cc sports bike and dropped that at a NASS session.