Godzone falling in the international education ratings

[Banditbandit]

Hmm .. I'm not sure we disagree - more like we are talking passed each other ...

No. You're putting the cart before the horse. First observe, then evaluate.

Before anything of value whatsoever can be gained from any analisys tool you need clean data. Test the kids. Make the results quantifiable, that means numbers, not opinions.

THEN you can attempt to attribute cause, and from that make changes that might reasonably be expected improve performance.

Yes - agree with all that ..

It's that immediate "Oh noes, we're being blamed as inept" response that sorta automatically causes the profession to be seen as intractable and self-centred. All of the potentially contributing factors you mention need to be introduced during analysis of the un-”corrected” results, not via fudge- factors applied beforehand.

OK ... it appears that the Governmment - i.e. Ms Parata and before her Ann Tolley - did blame the teachers ... and there's a fair bit of carry over of that into what the public think .... so many of us reactign to your words
because parata and co want to blame the teachers ..

Bullshit. Comparing student achievement effectively via directly comparable examination has been the norm forever, until the last generation or so. If they’re all sitting the same exam it’s a piece of piss.

Yeah - I agree there ... but when we went to school the common test was also a gatekeeping device .. half passed, half failed, and marks were scaled to make that happen. I would not like to see us go back to that ...

And there you go again: “using those results to make judgements on teachers”. Any parent is aware that the teacher is just one of a great many factors, why so defensive? The world outside of academia manages process improvement protocols without tantrums.

Do they? It doesn't seem like all parents are aware to me, and other teachers, at all - there's a "blame the teacher" culture out there for sure - maybe you are not part of it .. but it is there ... I've even had students who rarely came to class try to blame me for their failure ...

As for unwilling students, yep, and most parents would agree, it’d be nice to have a range of teaching methodologies/styles to choose from.

From my perspective I happen to agree with a lot of what you say .. I have dealt at tertiary level with the failings of the high schools - and I get very pissed off when tertiary education is expected to do things like numeracy and literacy courses for people whom the high schools have failed ... tertiary education should be just that - not remedial clases for adults ... but don't dump those failures on all teachers and on the education system ...

And yes, teachers should have a range of teaching methods and approaches - some of the bastards don't ...

But they see your problem from the other side: they’re a captive market for schools, their choices are limited. I, for example would rather that my kids were effectively disciplined by their school for poor behaviour… but that’s another kettle of red hearings.

Yeah .. red herring .. and not allowed to ... Personally, I think people should get 20 years of free education during their lives - the first 10 years are compulsory aged 5-15 .. then the other ten can be used at any stage during your life ... so you can leave school at 15 then return to education later on - or use the whole 20 up in one long stretch ...

That would remove the forced nature of education in the teenage years and we would only be teaching people who want to be there ...

[SVboy]

But he is right. why can't everyone sit the same exam? worked when I was at school, easy to see who is passing and who isn't, easy for parents to see if little johnny is passing of failing, easy to see what areas need to be worked on.

You are the coal face of teaching, you will be blamed for kids failing, suck it up or find a new profession, works in all walks of life so you are no different.

Because education will become market driven[as the govt wants] Schools will teach solely to the exam in order to boost their league table position. Schools that cant produce the results will be penalised with funding and 'flight'. Curriculum will narrow and poorer stratas of society will be further disadvantaged. The old system was a ranking/filtering system. Our society/the world has evolved and diversified too much for that to be relevent any more.

[Banditbandit]

Yes. Tyically neo-liberal tho' - mistaking an economic value for a use value ...

[Bald Eagle]

The other problem is attempting to 'blame' the teacher for little Johnnys failure when little Johnny may be as thick as a plank to start with. Yah cant make Einsteins out of idyits.

Sent from my LG-P768 using Tapatalk

[slowpoke]

Realistically it's all irrelevant.

From recent events it's obvious that a large proportion of the population is happy as a pig in poo that we raise a generation of tour guides and hospitality workers. Apparently skilled jobs via resource development are unwanted because the tourism industry is such a big employer and oil and gas development is fairly small....we'll conveniently ignore the fact that those few oil and gas workers contribute vastly more in tax $$$ via their higher wages.

http://www.careers.govt.nz/jobs-data...ho-earns-what/

You could argue that our education system is therefore largely wasting huge amounts of money once you get past the "you got change for a twenny?" stage. Sad but true.

[Ocean1]

In tertiary we get evaluated al the time - and if our pass rates fall below 45% our funding gets cut ...

Hmmm. And that's as it should be, it's one step away from true free market control dynamics but it's a necessary control function.

but then we have the advantage of selecting our students ... and kickign them out if they don't perform ...

Aye. I guess the students are then of an age where, firstly they’ve chosen that path for themselves and secondly where failure is no longer someone else’s responsibility.

[Ocean1]

This sums up the challenges and differentiation schools face nicely.

"Differentiation" sounds like the sort of excuse trotted out earlier. Of course there's differences in how kids learn, I've heard nobody deny it.

Ocean1-what do you think these "national standard" exams are trying to but completely failing to achieve. This approach has been tried and hugely discredited overseas-yet this government with its 'attack the teachers' agenda perserveres.

I would hope that they're trying to measure students educational achievements. Using the same ruler.

I have no idea how successful they are in doing that today, but I'd suggest it's not as difficult as you're making it sound. And if that's the approach you suggest has been discredited then I can only suggest that yours is the only professional enterprise in the world where such a tool isn't seen as necessary, and that it seems likely that in fact education professionals are the ones doing the discrediting.

As for an attack on teachers; I haven’t been paying attention recently, but I haven't seen one. Perhaps you could supply an example.

[Ocean1]

Do they? It doesn't seem like all parents are aware to me, and other teachers, at all - there's a "blame the teacher" culture out there for sure - maybe you are not part of it .. but it is there ... I've even had students who rarely came to class try to blame me for their failure ...

Yes. If you’re not hearing criticism from parents about other factors perhaps it’s because they don’t believe they’re under your control. Certaily there’s always the mandatory fuckwit that will blame a good teacher for their kid’s lack of work ethic, but most impartial observers are fully aware that the teacher is but one factor.

In passing, I’m of the opinion, (communicated regularly to my kids) that they were there to learn, that was their responsibility, not the teachers. If the odd teacher wasn’t much good in relating the required lessons then it was up the them to find an alternative. Complete Saturdays in the library weren’t unheard of.

And yes, teachers should have a range of teaching methods and approaches - some of the bastards don't ...

I don’t expect one professional to specialise across his complete profession. I rather had complete alternative institutions in mind.

Yeah .. red herring .. and not allowed to ... Personally, I think people should get 20 years of free education during their lives - the first 10 years are compulsory aged 5-15 .. then the other ten can be used at any stage during your life ... so you can leave school at 15 then return to education later on - or use the whole 20 up in one long stretch ...

That would remove the forced nature of education in the teenage years and we would only be teaching people who want to be there ...

The most effective teachers I’ve known are those that could apply consequences to adverse behaviour within the rules. I agree that the rules should allow a far greater latitude and research is long overdue regarding the damage the lack of discipline does.

As for a free education, another red flounder. Not to mention a fictional one.

But I could live with something along those lines, if the cost could be maintained to something most taxpayers might consider reasonable.

And yes, teenagers are difficult. You know more than anyone how much disruption is caused by having their brain completely reformatted to “adult”. It’s something that’s been dealt with successfully by earlier generations however. How did they do it?

[Ocean1]

Because education will become market driven[as the govt wants] Schools will teach solely to the exam in order to boost their league table position.

Now how could they do that? Advanced notification of exam content isn't required is it?

Could it be that teachers might be required to teach what the client wants?

Because, contrary to your wee socialist speech, there, the parents are the defacto customer, with the government managing that market in order that some dearly held socialist concepts actually be retained: the product's available to anybody, no matter the cost.

That disconnect between your pay packet and your clients apprehension of your performance doesn't mean you can ignore what the client wants. And the client invariable wants their kids to gain knowledge, and to be able to demonstrate that in clear, unambiguous terms.

The old system was a ranking/filtering system. Our society/the world has evolved and diversified too much for that to be relevent any more.

Probably. It tended to qualify those who achieved. For the life of me I can’t see that as anything other than very relevant, to the point of being absolutely essential. Evolved, indeed.

[Bean]

National Standards is a red herring, students have always been assessed and this information was available to the professionals in the industry. The only difference now is, that this information is now available to the public. This make the sector want to asses more robustly –leading to a vast amount more assessment (not a good thing) inter school and national moderation (a good thing [though massively time consuming]) if anybody in managements has an ego issue it becomes competitive. Now we have to tell the child and their parents that they are ‘below’ but we are unable to put them in a below class – for it might affect their self-esteem, which would deeply offend the PC brigade who ironically work for the same group of people that demanded our students be labelled.
National Standards along with the lasted media gems beg the question, after its hit the news and there’s been a vast amount of finger pointing and talkback hypothesizing, what are we actually going to do about it? And by ‘we’ I mean every member of society. It’s not just the education sector that is failing NZ young people – look at our youth suicide rates, child abuse, youth crime etc! Families and communities are not what they were 20 years ago – of course it’s getting worse, did anybody think otherwise!

[Banditbandit]

Hmmm. And that's as it should be, it's one step away from true free market control dynamics but it's a necessary control function.

The only thing I query is how low that figure is - anything below 80% retention 80% pass rate and I want to know why ... (and in my institute I am in a position to demand answers ) Anything below 50% is so far below the unacceptbale line I can't see why it's the TEC standard ...

That means there are some pretty shonky courses out there ... by shonky I mean shonky because teachers are crap OR the standards are set to high ... OR they are taking idiots onto the course .. a total waste of taxpayers money .. and as a taxpayer I object ...

[BoristheBiter]

Because education will become market driven[as the govt wants] Schools will teach solely to the exam in order to boost their league table position. Schools that cant produce the results will be penalised with funding and 'flight'. Curriculum will narrow and poorer stratas of society will be further disadvantaged. The old system was a ranking/filtering system. Our society/the world has evolved and diversified too much for that to be relevent any more.

I say bullshit but that's your opinion.

Curriculum, testing and assessments should be the same for every public school.
major exams should be pass or fail. (no scaling)
Everyone that leaves school should have the same qualification (subject depending)

You say we've moved on, maybe we should move back as this new system clearly isn't working.
I know you are just defending your profession but you must admit it's not working.

[Ocean1]

The only thing I query is how low that figure is - anything below 80% retention 80% pass rate and I want to know why ... (and in my institute I am in a position to demand answers ) Anything below 50% is so far below the unacceptbale line I can't see why it's the TEC standard ...

That means there are some pretty shonky courses out there ... by shonky I mean shonky because teachers are crap OR the standards are set to high ... OR they are taking idiots onto the course .. a total waste of taxpayers money .. and as a taxpayer I object ...

Or there's a number of courses instituted for the sole purpose of accessing funding, with little or no delivery mechanism.

Which describes a lot of Mcdiplomas.

I know of one where the total cost of delivery was a laptop and a CD.

[BoristheBiter]

That means there are some pretty shonky courses out there ... by shonky I mean shonky because teachers are crap OR the standards are set to high ... OR they are taking idiots onto the course .. a total waste of taxpayers money .. and as a taxpayer I object ...

Sunday golf was one that i could never understand how that got through.
And what would be a pass? even par?

[mashman]

A quote from University of Cambridge statistics professor David Spegeilhalter after his investigation, "I will treat the scores and ranks with suspicion."

I also note Denmark has abandoned the use of PISA rankings.

Bring on those changes.

heh... I can empathise. I raised my "concerns" over the methods being used and their possible problems (with a statistically "decorated" man, good smart funny man), and whilst acknowledged easily dismissed... and reading between the lines, it really only matters that as long as you pass parents/MoE some form of mark that makes more sense than the last one, then the new one should be implemented... it matters not how good your methodology/formula are that calculated it, it just has to "look" better results wise. So I agree, kinda, with Dave, but I've yet to see how else you could produce results that were true and honest enough i.e. taking into account the variable that BB etc... have highlighted. It is mission impossible, but it is excepted and tis one of the reasons I laugh at PRP when it's touted as a reason for teachers to teach. I've had beer.

Looks like Denmark may well have figured out that, ideally, you need to match the student to the education if you want a "happy" student. As BB says above, we're all ready to learn at different stages. Took me approx 37 years , unfortunately.

Hell yeah.