Elections are coming up. What are we thinking?

[Banditbandit]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

[Laava]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

Yep, but that is a good thing longterm. Think more maori are starting to get involved now with the running of this country? Voters wise I mean. So it is good to see a wider spectrum of candidates. Don't think Hone will do that well but he will get his seat in parliament again no doubt. Pretty popular bloke up here in the far north, not that I would vote for him but I admire his conviction on certain issues. He is a lot more transparent than your average candidate as well which is one of his better qualities.

[bogan]

Yep, but that is a good thing longterm. Think more maori are starting to get involved now with the running of this country? Voters wise I mean. So it is good to see a wider spectrum of candidates. Don't think Hone will do that well but he will get his seat in parliament again no doubt. Pretty popular bloke up here in the far north, not that I would vote for him but I admire his conviction on certain issues. He is a lot more transparent than your average candidate as well which is one of his better qualities.

Indeed, and with watering down of party's racial 'purity' like hone and dot, all voters in NZ might eventually vote on policy decisions instead of race. Although more likely it will turn into a high school popularity contest complete with leaked diary pages and much cattiness. #electiondebateswhen?

[Oscar]

The fundamental issue has always been that the Māori party covers a wide political spectrum ... they are united only by being Māori ... but Flavell is a conservative, Hone is pretty left while Tari and Peter are fairly centrist.

It was doomed to split and divide from the start.

I was impressed when I saw the poster where Dr Lance O'Sullivan was lending his support to the party.
That good will ebbed away when I saw that Tame Iti had been selected...

[Banditbandit]

Indeed, and with watering down of party's racial 'purity' like hone and dot, all voters in NZ might eventually vote on policy decisions instead of race. Although more likely it will turn into a high school popularity contest complete with leaked diary pages and much cattiness. #electiondebateswhen?

Voting is tribal ... National was the party set up by the farmers ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way). Labour the party set up by the unions ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way) ... both were lobby groups that decided to set up their own party.

Māori have ben reduced to a lobby group - and did what all lobby groups do - set up a political party ..

Policy decisions affect different tribes in different ways ... so, for instance, a policy holding down wages is good for the employer tribe, but bad for the worker tribe .. having a "voice at the table" means you get to put across your own concept of how your tribe will be affected ...

Using the concept of "race" in this way is just another way of the opponents attacking a particular lobby group ...

[bogan]

Voting is tribal ... National was the party set up by the farmers ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way). Labour the party set up by the unions ... (and that tribe still largely votes that way) ... both were lobby groups that decided to set up their own party.

Māori have ben reduced to a lobby group - and did what all lobby groups do - set up a political party ..

Policy decisions affect different tribes in different ways ... so, for instance, a policy holding down wages is good for the employer tribe, but bad for the worker tribe .. having a "voice at the table" means you get to put across your own concept of how your tribe will be affected ...

Using the concept of "race" in this way is just another way of the opponents attacking a particular lobby group ...

Big difference between, I am a farmer and I agree with national's policy regarding wages so will vote for them, and I am a Maori so will vote for the maori party. Sure you will get some that just default to who they have voted for, others that just vote with their tribal mob... But the current realities of the situation should not stop us wishing for and working towards a better one. Maori seats and racially oriented parties will be an impediment to progressing towards a smarter voting public (as is tribal/default voting); at best they are a stepping stone to encourage participation as Lavaa pointed out.

[Banditbandit]

Big difference between, I am a farmer and I agree with national's policy regarding wages so will vote for them, and I am a Maori so will vote for the maori party. Sure you will get some that just default to who they have voted for, others that just vote with their tribal mob... But the current realities of the situation should not stop us wishing for and working towards a better one. Maori seats and racially oriented parties will be an impediment to progressing towards a smarter voting public (as is tribal/default voting); at best they are a stepping stone to encourage participation as Lavaa pointed out.

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

[Laava]

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

Yep, which is why I don't see why there needs to be a separate maori enrolment system. I guess that may eventually not be needed. I think people are a lot better educated now as to maori culture and the fact that it is a massive part of our countries makeup. Very noticeable change in the general populations attitudes compared to, say 20 yrs ago. We could be in for some interesting times politically in the next decade or two and I mean in a positive way.

[Banditbandit]

Yep, which is why I don't see why there needs to be a separate maori enrolment system. I guess that may eventually not be needed. I think people are a lot better educated now as to maori culture and the fact that it is a massive part of our countries makeup. Very noticeable change in the general populations attitudes compared to, say 20 yrs ago. We could be in for some interesting times politically in the next decade or two and I mean in a positive way.

I agree - interesting times.

The increasing percentage of the population that identifies as Māori/Pacific islander (i.e. Polynesian descent) and the decreasing percentage of the population that is Pākehā will bring change itself ...

I'm not sure about garaunteed Māori representation - the evidence is staking up to suggest it is no longer needed - However I think the population shift will eventually mean a majority of MPs are Polynesian descent. If that occurs, and we have abolished the Maori seats there will be no basis for garaunteed seats for Pākehā New Zealanders ..

[bluninja]

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

So when the Asian population grows to 15% (projected 2021 by NZ Stats) will they be given race based seats?

Isn't your statement the basic proposition for MMP? Thus we could have any number of ethnic based parties, and provided they received 5% of the party vote or won an electorate then that percentage is "represented" in government. That being the case, why have electorates ring fenced on a racial basis?

[oldrider]

I agree - interesting times.

The increasing percentage of the population that identifies as Māori/Pacific islander (i.e. Polynesian descent) and the decreasing percentage of the population that is Pākehā will bring change itself ...

I'm not sure about garaunteed Māori representation - the evidence is staking up to suggest it is no longer needed - However I think the population shift will eventually mean a majority of MPs are Polynesian descent. If that occurs, and we have abolished the Maori seats there will be no basis for garaunteed seats for Pākehā New Zealanders ..

Had this situation been present at the beginning of our nationhood and Maori had not run with stupid bloody Labour party I suspect the Maori seats would have been dissolved by Maori by now!

Solid Maori representation could have been present right from the start!

I suspect there are still a substantial number of Maori voters who do not vote and do not get involved with politics because they feel alienated from the system.

Having the "Maori party" there is a very valuable springboard for some of these people to make a beginning through a perceived Maori comfort zone!

Like a political apprenticeship if you will .... all Labour did was put their boot on Maori necks and squeeze them down to do it our way or take the highway!

That's only my opinion and I had great hopes for Maori political advancement through the advent of the "Maori Party"!

That is why I feel a little vexed with Hone for fucking with it!

[bogan]

Māori do not all vote for the Māori Party - and look at people like Hekia Parata and Winston Peters, Nanaia Mahuta, Tau Henare ... Māori are there in other parties too ... political support and voting patterns are just as spread as the non-Māori votes.

I hope that they do not support the Māori Party simply because they are Māori - I hope they vote that way because they like what the party has managed to achieve ..

In our contemporary society Māori are 15+% of the population - a significant group affected by policies and legislation. Of course we want to be heard in parliament.

Ignoring the voice of a significant percentage of the population because it is "race based" is simply a way to avoid dealing with that percentage.

Didn't say all of them did, but being so racially oriented in name (and lets face it, their policies focus on getting the best for the moari race too); some simpletons will vote that way.

So be heard like everyone else, there is no whitey party, no asian party etc etc, and certainly no earmarked seats for such; we are not the color of our skin, and we should vote based on what is good for all kiwis.

Nobody is talking about ignoring their voice, but we would like it to be from what they think, not the color of their skin.

[Brian d marge]

Im going with Rev Al sharpton ,

keen as mustard and has Nz as his banner

Stephen

[Banditbandit]

So when the Asian population grows to 15% (projected 2021 by NZ Stats) will they be given race based seats?

Percentage of the population was NOT the argument for Māori seats .. and I'm not totally commited to the concept.

Isn't your statement the basic proposition for MMP? Thus we could have any number of ethnic based parties, and provided they received 5% of the party vote or won an electorate then that percentage is "represented" in government. That being the case, why have electorates ring fenced on a racial basis?

Yes - that's correct, and why I'm not totally committed to the Māori seats.

If we abolish them now, the issue is for the future - what might happen if there are NO Pākehā in Parliament, would Pākehā want gauranted Pākehā seats? After all, the belong in this country .. and would have no representation. If the Māori seats are abolished now because "We don't need them" then Pākehā New Zealand would have no argument for Pākehā only seats. .

[Banditbandit]

Had this situation been present at the beginning of our nationhood and Maori had not run with stupid bloody Labour party I suspect the Maori seats would have been dissolved by Maori by now!

OUr ancestors (the Māōri ones at least) never envisioned a situation where Māori would become a minority in this country - that had major impacts on the response to the immigrant population of the 19th xcentury ,,

Solid Maori representation could have been present right from the start!

Representative Government was not a Māori thing. But yes, that should have occurred - but I seriously doubtr the colonizers of the time would have allowed it.

I suspect there are still a substantial number of Maori voters who do not vote and do not get involved with politics because they feel alienated from the system.

Lots don't vote - and for that reason - they are disaffected ..

Having the "Maori party" there is a very valuable springboard for some of these people to make a beginning through a perceived Maori comfort zone!

Like a political apprenticeship if you will .... all Labour did was put their boot on Maori necks and squeeze them down to do it our way or take the highway!

That's only my opinion and I had great hopes for Maori political advancement through the advent of the "Maori Party"!

That is why I feel a little vexed with Hone for fucking with it!

Yes - all that - but many of us are also vexed that the party supports national. We (a majority of Maori Party voters)wanted them to go with Labour. I have not voted Māori Party for a couple of elections, and won't this time.