Yet another ATGATT thread

[swbarnett]

I want more graphic TV ads on road accidents.

It's been proven that graphic ads only turn people off. Those that the ads are aimed at just zone out and learn nothing.

I am thinking about getting people to make their own decisions.

This is the tricky part. Having the information available when someone is ready to take it in is the way to go. I agree that ads may work but not if they are too graphic. "You catch more flies with honey ...".

All this BEFORE we get legislated off the road.

We have to be careful not to do the legislator's job for them. The more we, the motorcycling fraternity, phrase motorcycling as a dangerous activity that requires copious amount of protective clothing the more the general public will be turned off it and start thinking that we shouldn't be doing it at all. It's about not painting motorcycling as more dangerous than it is.

Imposing stuff on people might not be the best way of getting the message across to some people.

Agreed. But who are we to think that our way of thinking is the only way? That is the way of the evangelist.

Notice how the general drink driving attitude for most people has reduced lately, still have accidents granted, but a lot more people think about it now.

Yet another example of brain-washing. One number for all doesn't work. I believe this is why the limit is so low as to victimise sober drivers. It may as well be zero and probably will be before long.

This discussion is like preaching to the already converted, you and I agree on the same ideas just how to put them out there to the general public we disagree on.

Yes and no. I think we agree on the role of protective clothing but (correct me if I'm wrong) I think we disagree on how dangerous motorcycling actually is and the right of the individual to mitigate what risk there is in their own way.

[Big Dog]

I don't support ATGATT a law. As a principle yes.

How do you enforce the law? Stop every bike you see and check their labels?

What if my gloves got stolen while I was out having a cup of coffee on my way home from a pleasant day riding? Must I call for a tow?

Extreme examples perhaps but letting a wild bronco out of the stable is a shitload easier than getting it back in.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[eldog]

It's been proven that graphic ads only turn people off. Those that the ads are aimed at just zone out and learn nothing.
This is the tricky part. Having the information available when someone is ready to take it in is the way to go. I agree that ads may work but not if they are too graphic. "You catch more flies with honey ...".
We have to be careful not to do the legislator's job for them. The more we, the motorcycling fraternity, phrase motorcycling as a dangerous activity that requires copious amount of protective clothing the more the general public will be turned off it and start thinking that we shouldn't be doing it at all. It's about not painting motorcycling as more dangerous than it is.
Agreed. But who are we to think that our way of thinking is the only way? That is the way of the evangelist.
Yet another example of brain-washing. One number for all doesn't work. I believe this is why the limit is so low as to victimise sober drivers. It may as well be zero and probably will be before long.
Yes and no. I think we agree on the role of protective clothing but (correct me if I'm wrong) I think we disagree on how dangerous motorcycling actually is and the right of the individual to mitigate what risk there is in their own way.

The graphic ads will only help those willing to think about it - not everyone. And yes they will become a zone out

Its a case of Not in my back yard mentality and it cant happen to me - I am bullet proof and such a great rider I didn't see the diesel spill.
Most people will never have an accident, if they don't - they have been fortunate

Agreed if we can promote 'safe' gear as some sort of 'cool/sexy' factor so people will want to use it, then that will avoid the Legislation etc Less legislation the better I say.
Low number for Alcohol has made those 'sober' drivers affect those more at risk of having one for the road.-sort of group pressure from below
I expect they will reduce it to zero before long, lowering it was only a 1/2 way measure so people didn't go off.
Much like the 'temporary speed limit of 80' and 90 around akl - how long is temporary
Suspect they will reduce the open road speed limit to 90, if there wasn't so many 100 kph signs about (they will sight the lowering of deaths in the Bombay to Thames mway turn off as a reason for lowering ALL speed limits)
Someone has to led a crusade - I agreed we shouldn't push it on others, I just want people to be informed/think about it.

absolutely the right of the individual to mitigate the risk - just don't come to me for sympathy when people wear shorts and jandals with their protective helmet
I know its cool to wear just those things and I have done it without a helmet - so free. But I also know how fast shit can happen....

I wont give a shit when they suffer from skin grafts etc.

and

BigDog - I always take my gear and look out for it when I stop.
I don't expect their to be people checking that you have the right gear, its upto the individual

its about information getting it out there

MOSTLY ABOUT PERSONAL RESPONCIBILITY

[eldog]

I don't support ATGATT a law. As a principle yes.
What if my gloves got stolen while I was out having a cup of coffee on my way home from a pleasant day riding? Must I call for a tow?

Extreme examples perhaps but letting a wild bronco out of the stable is a shitload easier than getting it back in.

DONT want it as a law.

You need to keep an eye on your gear and change the people you mix with if your gloves got stolen.
If you cant trust the people your with, then change them

Someone I knew did something like that to me, died from a drug overdose - funny that - he was a sick cnut
Could have cared less.
Pity his sister and mother were very nice people - they had to put up with his shit.

Simple - Horse needed more information to make a decision
Give it some time to make its mind up
If it doesn't come back - Shoot the horse - theres always conseqeunces

Same with people who have an accident - consequences - just the amount of shit varies

I don't need other peoples shit (only those I care about concern me)
If I can help 1 other person in my short life then I will be happy

[Big Dog]

And that is why there needs to be education as part of the learning end ongoing experience not as a reactionary function.
Unfortunately you can't educate those who don't want to be educated.
For those Darwin shall be thy teacher.

Back to the horse analogy.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
You sure can make it shy of water or drown it.
Okay so bronco did not return?
You caught him in the fist place to break him and make him useful. If you shoot him what have you gained? If you beat him you may feel better but he is less likely to come home in the future. Put out some meres and a feed chances are you'll find your mustang back in the coral.

But that is applying the analogy to riders. I intended the analogy to be applied to the process of creating new legislation.
Pretty sure parliament would be a little miffed if you went down there with a 12 gauge and 121 cartridges every time a law was passed you didn't like.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[swbarnett]

RC, one question - would you do the same to a cyclist on a tandem similarly dressed with their kid on the back seat?

[eldog]

And that is why there needs to be education as part of the learning end ongoing experience not as a reactionary function.
Unfortunately you can't educate those who don't want to be educated.
For those Darwin shall be thy teacher.

Back to the horse analogy.
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.
You sure can make it shy of water or drown it.
Okay so bronco did not return?
You caught him in the fist place to break him and make him useful. If you shoot him what have you gained? If you beat him you may feel better but he is less likely to come home in the future. Put out some meres and a feed chances are you'll find your mustang back in the coral.

But that is applying the analogy to riders. I intended the analogy to be applied to the process of creating new legislation.
Pretty sure parliament would be a little miffed if you went down there with a 12 gauge and 121 cartridges every time a law was passed you didn't like.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

darwin - for evolution do you think these people will evolve, some may, but not all and how long do you want to wait hundreds of years?

It doesnt worry me to think that some people will always do what they want, as long as the info is out there.
Still with Darwin if these people dont die (least cost after no accident in lifetime) the cost of recooperation, if they are able to be recooperated - (many become disabled sometimes permantently and unable to resume normal function) directly influences the costs to all motorcyclists - this is what i want to reduce
have a look at the AA they are trying to get ACC costs to be directly related to mbike users.
As I see it there are lots of unlicensed and unregistered mbikes on the road.
Would you like to see more decroian type of law enforcement on mbike users to pay for this system or would you like to see more people like RC give us mbike users a break and try and use a carrot instead of a stick.

I always perfer to be informed, shouldnt the law enforcement be a friendly face rather than that like the UK coppers you see on TV - because of the shit public/police confrontation

I spoke to 2 law enforcement people today, they were friendly and seemed appreciative that a member of the public (me) actually stopped and informed them of an accident that had just happened around the corner.

I am intriged as to how/what sort of mares you are going to put in the corral to get the bronco back?
a couple of get well cards? or a few girls from Tuakau? or some sticking plasters to cover the wounds from ronald macdonald house.

I am sure you would protect your kids as well as you do yourself when you take them on the bike
probably even more protective since you seem to know the risks.

[eldog]

RC, one question - would you do the same to a cyclist on a tandem similarly dressed with their kid on the back seat?

Have you seen the gravel rash that cyclists get and the infections?
there is always more cyclists

yes I would stop them - no helmet? no gloves? covered limbs?

maybe we should register all cyclists and all offroad mbikes too as well as farm bikes etc
look at how much farm and off road bikes are costing road bike registered users.

sure they pay in petrol taxes but dont we all?

no I am not backing RC this is just my own opinion

[nzspokes]

RC, one question - would you do the same to a cyclist on a tandem similarly dressed with their kid on the back seat?

Not many would ride a tandem with a child in the stoker position. Would be bloody hard work. You clearly know nothing about cycling as well.

[swbarnett]

Not many would ride a tandem with a child in the stoker position. Would be bloody hard work.

Who said anything about a tandem? There are seats for kids that bolt to a standard bicycle.

You clearly know nothing about cycling as well.

You clearly know nothing about me. I cycle commuted in Auckland for a number of years. Not once did I have any more protective gear than a helmet, sturdy shoes and gloves (thin ones). My question related to whether RC would apply the same evangelistic attitude to someone doing this with a kid on the back. Fair question I thought. Would tell is whether or not he is prejudice against motorcyclists that chose to exercise the same rights.

[swbarnett]

Have you seen the gravel rash that cyclists get and the infections?

And this is relevant how? I only wanted to know if RC would apply his evangelism evenly or if he's actually prejudice against motorcyclists. His lack of response would suggest to me that perhaps he doesn't want to answer the question.

no ... covered limbs?

Covered with what? Surely you don't expect a recreational road cyclist to wear anything other than lycra? Kid or no kid.

maybe we should register all cyclists and all offroad mbikes too as well as farm bikes etc

Definitely. In Switzerland I had to pay rego for my bicycle.

[nzspokes]

Who said anything about a tandem? There are seats for kids that bolt to a standard bicycle.


You clearly know nothing about me. I cycle commuted in Auckland for a number of years. Not once did I have any more protective gear than a helmet, sturdy shoes and gloves (thin ones). My question related to whether RC would apply the same evangelistic attitude to someone doing this with a kid on the back. Fair question I thought. Would tell is whether or not he is prejudice against motorcyclists that chose to exercise the same rights.

Read post #186. You did.

[eldog]

And this is relevant how? I only wanted to know if RC would apply his evangelism evenly or if he's actually prejudice against motorcyclists. His lack of response would suggest to me that perhaps he doesn't want to answer the question.


Covered with what? Surely you don't expect a recreational road cyclist to wear anything other than lycra? Kid or no kid.


Definitely. In Switzerland I had to pay rego for my bicycle.

I was interested in RC's response as well, he is on the 'front line' and would see any effects. I was only my opinion - not that it would matter

I used to cover my arms with a long sleeved shirt and leggings - I was a recreational cyclist too - I saw the effects on my mates
it was my own effort to help myself - I never did have an accident on my bicycle.
1 was Tee boned at a light controlled crossing, car ran a RED - broke thigh bone
1 was cut off by a car - massive grazing, cuts, bruises etc

How much for rego on bike in Switzerland I wonder, thought you might have put this in context
and how did they police the rego stuff I wonder

[eldog]

You clearly know nothing about me. I cycle commuted in Auckland for a number of years. Not once did I have any more protective gear than a helmet, sturdy shoes and gloves (thin ones)..

Yep know nothing about you - out of interest
would you still wear the same if you were still cycling in akl?
would you still cycle in akl now if you had the choice?

[Gadget1]

I only wanted to know if RC would apply his evangelism evenly or if he's actually prejudice against motorcyclists. His lack of response would suggest to me that perhaps he doesn't want to answer the question.

From what I've seen on here, rastuscat is prejudiced for motorcyclists and their safety not against them.