Make yourself seen

[Ulsterkiwi]

Rastus's whole point is bullshit.

Things won't improve until we place more importance on opening our own fucking eyes than on what we're wearing.

Clothing Nazis can suck my dick.

please, tell us what you really think.

Perhaps if a rider is putting enough thinking into their positioning and behaviour to raise their conspicuity, its because they are paying attention to what's going on around them? Why do the two things have to be mutually exclusive?
For sure, thinking that because you have hi-viz on or do certain things that entitles you to ignore whats going an around you is an huge issue. Just look at the muppets who have no earthly clue how to use a merge lane, throw an indicator out (maybe) move across solid lines and pay no attention to the speed or volume of traffic already on the road being joined or adapt their speed or positioning to suit. No dammit! I am on a merge lane, I will fucking merge! Thats cages AND bikes of course.

[Katman]

The problem here is that we steadfastly refuse to address the real issue.

The licensing requirements for motorcyclists is hopelessly inadequate.

Am I reading it right in the 'Professionalism' thread that you're allowed to fail 25 points and yet still pass?

We need to stop settling for mediocrity.

[nerrrd]

The attentiveness of drivers covers a whole spectrum, they don't all drive in front of trains. Similarly a whole lot of them will see hivis because it it's used widely on the road as a way to get their attention, so they're expecting to see it, and know what it means. At the same time a whole lot of them will 'choose' not to see it because they're running late, texting, or just don't give a shit. Riding in such a way that I'm positioned where a driver would expect another car to be has always worked for me as well (in Auckland traffic), which some might say is asking for trouble, yet I've never had an accident involving another vehicle, YMMV.

So it's likely that hivis will help sometimes, but not always. Positioning, planning ahead, good lighting etc, it all helps, but won't necessarily work all the time. For me I want to use as many tools as I can to improve my chances of being seen on the road. But then I'm never going to buy an R1, get my knee down or wear one piece leathers either, so my approach to riding is different to a lot of others (ie waaaay more boring.) The motorcycle industry caters for us all, thank god, I wouldn't want to live in a world without R1s, Harleys and all the other fantastic, beautiful bikes out there.

We all choose our own level of self preservation, but I think it's stupid to dismiss any one measure out of hand just because it doesn't appeal. Although that's a very human thing to do - the world is grey people, as much as we would prefer it all to be black and white. A splash of hivis might help.

[Katman]

And the other issue that we seem reluctant to address is that there are still far too many motorcyclists who see no problem with treating public roads as racetracks.

Quite how we fix that problem is anyone's guess.

[Maha]

And the other issue that we seem reluctant to address is that there are still far too many motorcyclists who see no problem with treating public roads as racetracks.

Quite how we fix that problem is anyone's guess.

That whole race track mentality with some riders is never going to stop. STJim (a Ulysses mentor) once told a group ride that '' once we're on SH22 anyone that wants to race that is the place to do it''... some of us were jaw dropped at that suggestion and went another way....home.

[Ulsterkiwi]

The problem here is that we steadfastly refuse to address the real issue.

The licensing requirements for motorcyclists is hopelessly inadequate.

Am I reading it right in the 'Professionalism' thread that you're allowed to fail 25 points and yet still pass?

We need to stop settling for mediocrity.

you have a point about the ease of gaining a licence.

I do not know all the ins and outs of the CBTA motorcycle assessment, I do know more than a little about assessment of competency and assessment of performance in general.
So here is my take and I defer to those who know better if I am wrong. What you are reading about is that for the restricted licence CBTA test, the pass mark is 75%. That's pretty high some would argue. The system works on a negative scoring scheme which I have my own ideas about but there it is. Each negative mark is something the rider has missed, perhaps not using their indicator when they should have or exceeding the speed limit by more than 5kph for more than 5 seconds, perhaps even accelerating to a higher speed BEFORE the sign. Would you say someone is not competent because they make one mistake like that? 2? 5? 10 over a period of close to an hour? Of course some errors are instant fails.
25 omissions or mistakes might sound like a lot but some of them would be argued as not worthy of note by many experienced riders on here.
I think what is gained by this system is an assessor can gain a useful picture of the consistency a candidate can demonstrate. My understanding is anyone who fails CBTA is given a full debrief and advice how to resolve and improve. Most improvement is that which can be demonstrated consistently in a variety of situations.
Of course this all sinks or swims on what you believe is achieved by any assessment. If its a certification it usually indicates a MINIMUM standard. If we do not subscribe to idea of lifelong learning then noone will ever progress beyond the minimum.
Back on track, opening your eyes, absolutely its first principles, but then what?

[Old Steve]

I try to do everything/anything which will increase my chances of survival. Yes, wearing hi-viz is one of them, only one, and I've said before that I'd wear a pink tutu if I thought it'd gave me an extra 1% chance of survival. Been thinking lately about putting a lime green plastic mohawk on my helmet.

So, I:

Wear a hi-viz vest
Wear a white helmet
Wear ATGATT
Ride my own ride, within my capabilities (and sorry if I've held you up on the motorway on my way to and from work)
Check my bike, tires, brakes regularly
Ride in the right hand (fast) lane on the motorway so I only have to worry about cars on one side of me
Move within my lane to present car drivers with a moving object which is more easily seen than one in the same visual position
Have a PLAN B, a "what if?" plan
Watch other vehicles, watch the driver's hands on the wheel, watch their head for indications they're using their mirrors in anticipation of changing lanes, watch their wheels.
Watch for potential hazards, does that parked car have a driver in it, could a child run out between those parked cars, could that car continue out from that driveway, watch the road surface, watch for lane splitting motorcyclists coming up from behind
Don't ride over road markings even on a dry day, that way it becomes a habit to avoid them in the wet
Slow before corners, better to go in too slow than overheated
Use my space, own the road, don't give cars the suggestion that they can squeeze passed you
Do the 'happy biker weave' when I see a car stopped at a side road, they just might see my headlight moving across their field of vision and not pull out
Ride well back from the car in front, so what if another car pulls into the gap in front of you you'll get there eventually
Make sure the way is clear at intersections, stop at stop signs, look right, left and right again at give ways, better to give way than to make a mistake
Believe that 'Right of way' is something you are given, not something you have by right, it's no use saying from your hospital bed, "But, I had the right of way!"
Slow down on wet roads, slow down in reduced visibility
Don't drink and ride, not one drink - I don't have the skills to ride on two wheels with any impairment from alcohol, however slight
Make sure my pillion is secure before I ride off, ride conservatively when carrying a pillion
Ease to the left when approaching the crest of a hill to give myself more space and time if some idiot is passing coming up the other side
Get out, get passed and get back in when overtaking
Engage brain before turning on the ignition, no outside thoughts while riding, concetrate on the job in hand


And probably a lot more that I do by habit, without thinking about them. So I'm a nanny rider, hopefully I become a really old nanny rider.

Yeah, I wear a hi-viz and I don't care if you do or not. But wearing a hi-viz isn't the answer to all our hazards, it's only one component of a very complex picture including self awareness and awareness of others on the road.

[eldog]

None of this is absolute.
It's about improving your chances and there are no guarantees.

Also, everything you say about locomotives is true.
However that's mostly up here in Auckland. Maybe there's a clue there.

Some use the tracks as a means to an end, that's entirely their choice. Often unavoidable in the mind of the participant. Sad to see it unfolding.

[Katman]

Back on track, opening your eyes, absolutely its first principles, but then what?

Engaging the brain.

[Maha]

I try to do everything/anything which will increase my chances of survival. Yes, wearing hi-viz is one of them, only one, and I've said before that I'd wear a pink tutu if I thought it'd gave me an extra 1% chance of survival. Been thinking lately about putting a lime green plastic mohawk on my helmet.

So, I:

Wear a hi-viz vest
Wear a white helmet
Wear ATGATT
Ride my own ride, within my capabilities (and sorry if I've held you up on the motorway on my way to and from work)
Check my bike, tires, brakes regularly
Ride in the right hand (fast) lane on the motorway so I only have to worry about cars on one side of me
Move within my lane to present car drivers with a moving object which is more easily seen than one in the same visual position
Have a PLAN B, a "what if?" plan
Watch other vehicles, watch the driver's hands on the wheel, watch their head for indications they're using their mirrors in anticipation of changing lanes, watch their wheels.
Watch for potential hazards, does that parked car have a driver in it, could a child run out between those parked cars, could that car continue out from that driveway, watch the road surface, watch for lane splitting motorcyclists coming up from behind
Don't ride over road markings even on a dry day, that way it becomes a habit to avoid them in the wet
Slow before corners, better to go in too slow than overheated
Use my space, own the road, don't give cars the suggestion that they can squeeze passed you
Do the 'happy biker weave' when I see a car stopped at a side road, they just might see my headlight moving across their field of vision and not pull out
Ride well back from the car in front, so what if another car pulls into the gap in front of you you'll get there eventually
Make sure the way is clear at intersections, stop at stop signs, look right, left and right again at give ways, better to give way than to make a mistake
Believe that 'Right of way' is something you are given, not something you have by right, it's no use saying from your hospital bed, "But, I had the right of way!"
Slow down on wet roads, slow down in reduced visibility
Don't drink and ride, not one drink - I don't have the skills to ride on two wheels with any impairment from alcohol, however slight
Make sure my pillion is secure before I ride off, ride conservatively when carrying a pillion
Ease to the left when approaching the crest of a hill to give myself more space and time if some idiot is passing coming up the other side
Get out, get passed and get back in when overtaking
Engage brain before turning on the ignition, no outside thoughts while riding, concetrate on the job in hand


And probably a lot more that I do by habit, without thinking about them. So I'm a nanny rider, hopefully I become a really old nanny rider.

Yeah, I wear a hi-viz and I don't care if you do or not. But wearing a hi-viz isn't the answer to all our hazards, it's only one component of a very complex picture including self awareness and awareness of others on the road.

Some excellent points there Steve.
These in particular.

Ride my own ride, within my capabilities
Ride in the right hand (fast) lane on the motorway so I only have to worry about cars on one side of me
Move within my lane to present car drivers with a moving object which is more easily seen than one in the same visual position
Have a PLAN B, a "what if?" plan
Watch for potential hazards, does that parked car have a driver in it, could a child run out between those parked cars, could that car continue out from that driveway, watch the road surface, watch for lane splitting motorcyclists coming up from behind
Make sure the way is clear at intersections, stop at stop signs, look right, left and right again at give ways, better to give way than to make a mistake
Slow down on wet roads, slow down in reduced visibility
Make sure my pillion is secure before I ride off, ride conservatively when carrying a pillion
Get out, get passed and get back in when overtaking


I am not one for ear plugs or music playing while riding, to me it takes away one of your senses.
When passing a truck trailer combo, I am always very aware of driveways to the left where potentially, a car could dart in order to beat the truck and be in a head on position with me.

[Scubbo]

white helmets seem to be the goes, most bikes you can't see the rider/high-vis when they're coming towards you --- I guess high-vis helps with the side on detection? but how often are you moving side-on on a motorbike

[boozehound]

On the road you have one responsibility, get yourself and anyone you interact with home alive...

If hi vis works for you, just do it. Live and let live, its far better than the alternative of live and let die....
I think old steve has called it, better to ride like a nana and live to be old than ride like a hooligan, and die young like one. Just remember you can't ride when you are dead.

[pritch]

Anyone wanking on about hi vis clothing or helmets is doing just that. We have total fucking morons driving in front of FUCKING LOCOMOTOVES!!!!!!!. They have a headlight that'd melt the berg that sunk the Titanic. They make the ground shake like a 3.5 quake, and a horn that makes you poo your pants. Yet lots of our licenced drivers, get smashed by them year after year. If the train had a high vis bib...do you half wits think it'd make an iota of difference? Of fucking course not. Get a fucking grip.

I'm in awe of your metaphors but gotta share the love so no bling.

The OP makes good points about positioning yourself on the road so as to make yourself visible. When I was riding the moped though people would stare right at you then just pull into the space that you were about to occupy. I'm convinced that old research that found drivers react to perceived threats was right. Why they don't perceive a truck, tank (yes *), bus, or even a train as a threat is beyond me. Although I do need to work on that myself as I cross a railway line most days.

Hi Viz is a crock of shit at the best of times but locally there is a major road reconstruction project which includes a couple of new bridges. For a year or so now there has been a whole variety of road cones, barriers, markers and sundry other orange hardware for maybe a couple of kilometres. There are still swarms of dudes in Hi Viz vests. Good luck to anyone who thinks wearing Hi Viz around here is going to help them.


*https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-FZfGoPYWU

[Ulsterkiwi]

Engaging the brain.

which is kinda my point, no aspect of riding can be broken down to a single "do this and you are sorted" solution.
Rastus point (I think) was think about what YOU are doing, you (I think) are saying think what OTHERS are doing.
Both necessary, both need to be worked on, in all cases having a licence (passing a test) is an indication that you achieved the minimum standard to get going on the road.
I don't know about you but I would rather go a bit beyond the minimum.

[Jin]

Loud pipes are more effective than loud clothes.