Election Bribes 2017

[James Deuce]

The only thing Politicians follow through on is increasing taxes and/or "levies".

Everything else they say is a baldfaced lie.

We won't any more broke after the election than we already are. The only difference will be if one lot get in Government services will stay the same. If the other lot get in they'll continue to decrease in availability and quality.

[TheDemonLord]

And the fact that those doing the supporting also have families, also not at fault?

Is a great idea. Tried it. Multiple times.
The reason, they're poor is because they make poor decisions.
Including not turning up for community service work.

not necessarily - they may also be poor because they aren't very intelligent. just remember - 50% of people have an IQ less than 100...

They may also be poor because they are highly creative, but not very conscientious

[Ocean1]

The only thing Politicians follow through on is increasing taxes and/or "levies".

Everything else they say is a baldfaced lie.

We won't any more broke after the election than we already are. The only difference will be if one lot get in Government services will stay the same. If the other lot get in they'll continue to decrease in availability and quality.

Broadly, what services have decreased in real terms over the last decade?

[Akzle]

Aye, I've never seen the sheer quantity of anti-right spittle evident in the general media at any previous election. And yes, I've accounted for confirmation bias in that assessment.



Again, it's really not that difficult to fix: split the two costs and fund them differently.

Infrastructure tax would represent, say 90% of the budget. Everyone uses it so everyone should pay accordingly. Ethically that should be a nominal amount per citizen, but as you say 80% simply couldn't afford to pay that. So we're immediately back to pinging rich pricks more simply "because they can afford it". So be it, everyone pays, say a flat 15% infrastructure tax. Fuck a sliding scale, that's simply doubling down on the same "they can afford it" bullshit.

Social services, by their very nature amount to charity. If that's not the case then I can't see why I should be paying for it. Those benefiting simply can't contribute, (possibly temporarily) and as above: those contributing can afford it more. Fund it from a designated and fenced charity tax. Less than some 3% of the current budget is "benefits", fuckit, call the charity tax 5%. You get charity, (which orta be fairly generous from that revenue) for being unable to work, and maybe to help look after special needs relatives. That's it. Arsehole 99% of the administration cost involved in the current setup and feed that back into the pot.

How's your addition? I make that a flat tax of 20%. There is no other tax designation, and no fuzzy "working for (someone else's) familys", if you can't afford your life choices at your current income then asking someone else to pay for them isn't an option. Note that with 90% of the national tax take paying for a lot of your needs and you paying a paltry 20% tax you really don't have much of an excuse for not managing that.

ah yes. an economic solution to the economic problem. and you know it will work cos it always has before

[mashman]

The only thing Politicians follow through on is increasing taxes and/or "levies".

Everything else they say is a baldfaced lie.

We won't any more broke after the election than we already are. The only difference will be if one lot get in Government services will stay the same. If the other lot get in they'll continue to decrease in availability and quality.

Reagan nailed it.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

[Ocean1]

not necessarily - they may also be poor because they aren't very intelligent. just remember - 50% of people have an IQ less than 100...

They may also be poor because they are highly creative, but not very conscientious

Then if they aspire to an average lifestyle they should probably expect to work a tad harder.

In which case they can afford to fuck around a bit and still earn a decent income.



This "equality" shit, can we just arsehole the whole rationale as a means of defining "fair and just" FFS? Only, I'm actually pretty sure that absolutely nobody is equal to anyone else in any given respect. So why should they expect equal income?

The only possible result of paying everyone the same is to lower production to the lowest common denominator. Fuck that.

[Ocean1]

ah yes. an economic solution to the economic problem. and you know it will work cos it always has before

Show me where's it's been tried before.

Or are you just driveling on auto as usual?

[Ocean1]

Reagan nailed it.

"Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it."

I'd forgotten that. But damn it's accurate.

Edit: which reminds me: An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought. Simon Cameron.

[James Deuce]

Broadly, what services have decreased in real terms over the last decade?

Health, education, and welfare.

I've lived at the pointy end of all three for the last 14 years and Special Education Services have all but disappeared. Access to top flight diagnostic gear requires private medical insurance and Mental Health services have also vanished. Many procedures that were Inpatient activities have become day cases requiring uplift of a child at 2am because there are "no" beds. WINZ and IRD have gone from being accessible if not outright friendly to hiding behind callback systems and insisting that Autosomal conditions can be cured requiring private medical Insurance to provide proof that they can't as you need private access to Consultants to provide supporting documentation to WINZ.

Funding for Early Intervention has fluctuated wildly requiring significant increases in fees from parents that amount to thousands a year. Early Intervention is vital for obtaining ORRS funding to get the correct level of support in place before starting school, such as teacher aides and specialist furniture, equipment and teaching aids. Without Early Intervention involvement it is almost impossible to get the top level of ORRS funding.

[TheDemonLord]

Then if they aspire to an average lifestyle they should probably expect to work a tad harder.

In which case they can afford to fuck around a bit and still earn a decent income.

Well, yes - there are those who are intelligent and creative, but have fuck all work ethic - those people need to work harder, but there is also a class who work hard, but for lack of a better word are Stupid. They are barely capable of performing the most menial of tasks.

You know that 40 year old worker at a fast food restaurant who can barely get your order right - they can work as hard as they want, they are still going to be on the bottom rungs of the economic and societal ladder because they are stupid. And this isn't faux-superiority, the 2 biggest predictors (combined) for how much someone will earn is hard work AND intelligence - if you work hard but are stupid, you are going to hit an intellectual ceiling - where the higher paying tasks are simply too complex for you.

For these people - there should be a reasonable standard of living - what constitutes reasonable - well, that's up for debate.

This "equality" shit, can we just arsehole the whole rationale as a means of defining "fair and just" FFS? Only, I'm actually pretty sure that absolutely nobody is equal to anyone else in any given respect. So why should they expect equal income?

The only possible result of paying everyone the same is to lower production to the lowest common denominator. Fuck that.

Equality of outcome is Cancer, but also one has to be conscious of the gini coefficient for Income - if it becomes too steep, that's where you see a big rise in Crime - if those at the bottom have no alternatives to succeed other than become violent thugs.

This is what I talk about when I mean a societal cost. Yes, nature is unequal, but if we let society get too disparate, then we end up creating a crime wave.

[TheDemonLord]

Health, education, and welfare.

I've lived at the pointy end of all three for the last 14 years and Special Education Services have all but disappeared. Access to top flight diagnostic gear requires private medical insurance and Mental Health services have also vanished. Many procedures that were Inpatient activities have become day cases requiring uplift of a child at 2am because there are "no" beds. WINZ and IRD have gone from being accessible if not outright friendly to hiding behind callback systems and insisting that Autosomal conditions can be cured requiring private medical Insurance to provide proof that they can't as you need private access to Consultants to provide supporting documentation to WINZ.

Funding for Early Intervention has fluctuated wildly requiring significant increases in fees from parents that amount to thousands a year. Early Intervention is vital for obtaining ORRS funding to get the correct level of support in place before starting school, such as teacher aides and specialist furniture, equipment and teaching aids. Without Early Intervention involvement it is almost impossible to get the top level of ORRS funding.

Is that not that we have an increasingly aging population who live longer? The Superannuation fund is the biggest single expenditure on our Govt. I'd be interested to see what the percentage of super was 10 years ago, 20 and then 30

[Voltaire]

from 2012

The number of people aged 65 and over will grow from 610,000 today to over 1.1 million in 2031. The cost of New Zealand Superannuation will balloon from 9 billion dollars a year to 20 billion dollars a year in today's terms. That is $7,800 per person in the labour force, nearly twice the current bill.Jan 25, 2012

That needs a " working group"

Maybe the likes of Winston Peters who don't need it but see it as an 'entitlement' should offer to pass on it or better still retire and get out of our faces.

Mr English should come out and say if he will or wont form a Govt with NZ First as it might determine if I vote for them or not.

[Ocean1]

Health, education, and welfare.

I've lived at the pointy end of all three for the last 14 years and Special Education Services have all but disappeared. Access to top flight diagnostic gear requires private medical insurance and Mental Health services have also vanished. Many procedures that were Inpatient activities have become day cases requiring uplift of a child at 2am because there are "no" beds. WINZ and IRD have gone from being accessible if not outright friendly to hiding behind callback systems and insisting that Autosomal conditions can be cured requiring private medical Insurance to provide proof that they can't as you need private access to Consultants to provide supporting documentation to WINZ.

Funding for Early Intervention has fluctuated wildly requiring significant increases in fees from parents that amount to thousands a year. Early Intervention is vital for obtaining ORRS funding to get the correct level of support in place before starting school, such as teacher aides and specialist furniture, equipment and teaching aids. Without Early Intervention involvement it is almost impossible to get the top level of ORRS funding.

And yet the spend on at least Health and Welfare is higher than it's ever been.

And I know you don't see that, and I know ACC and WINZ fail to deliver what they say they do, but at least part of the reason for that is the fact that politicians continue to promise more services, for more people than the budget will deliver. A situation not made any easier by rapid improvements in expensive health technology. Vote buying will ALWAYS fail to deliver effective results, it's not even in the picture.

So you go from a rational "best bang for your buck" spending policy to one where you've over-promised so much that nit pickin' bureaucratic obstruction and blowing out the waiting list are the only options.

Also, promising middle NZ health care subsidies and welfare access is fucking stupid, it simply detracts from resources that should be available for those that actually need them. You'd think that when you reach the point that half the population are net beneficiaries it'd be a dead giveaway that you're not dealing in "need", you're just taking money they'd far more efficiently be spending themselves, blowing half of it on administration and giving back pretty much what you took in the first place. This is manufacturing a dependent middle class.

[oldrider]

Ground hog day? - same old same old every three years! - Keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result? -

[Stylo]

Leaders debate tonight is an instant ' no watch ' for me . If Mike Hoskings is the mediator , it's hardly going to be balanced.

He lost his credibility a long time ago. plus , he's an egotistical wanker, and I'm a long time National supporter.