Calling all conspiracy theorists - do you believe in this one?

[sugilite:Me]

How do you know its the same aircraft or that it is coming back around? I am also puzzled how can you identify aircraft from 40000ft.

Because it is leaving a trail it is easy to track eh.

[sugilite:Me]

If you don't have the foggiest (scuse the pun) then why are you calling it chemtrails?

Because it is the term being most often used in the description of the phenomena.

[sugilite:Me]

Oh Dear. Contrails from an Aircraft, predating any theories about geo-engineering and from aircraft using standard Piston engines (so not Turboprops or turbine engines).

Well, that should be the nail in that particular coffin*

*to anyone with half a brain - which rules out the Kiwibiker Konspiracy Krew.

The difference to my half brain between then and now - is that the contrails did not hang around all day and spread across the entire sky. Sure, I may have not noticed when I was a kid, but I was fascinated - obsessed even with them and I did observe them at great detail and I can honestly not remember contrails acting then as they do now.

[Laava]

Because it is the term being most often used in the description of the phenomena.

Fair enough, but they are called contrails, chemtrails is a conspiracy theory term.

[Graystone]

The difference to my half brain between then and now - is that the contrails did not hang around all day and spread across the entire sky. Sure, I may have not noticed when I was a kid, but I was fascinated - obsessed even with them and I did observe them at great detail and I can honestly not remember contrails acting then as they do now.

Both engines and the climate have changed significantly since then. What hasn't changed is the laws of physics, how much bad stuff has to be lifted to form a chemtrail 20km wide?

[sugilite:Me]

Both engines and the climate have changed significantly since then. What hasn't changed is the laws of physics, how much bad stuff has to be lifted to form a chemtrail 20km wide?

Yep, I can accept that, and the thought occurred to me the planes could also be flying a lot higher than previously and as carbon head pointed out they could also be just kicking off the cloud seeding - even though the oddly rippled clouds do look different from non seeded ones.
So just my question remains about who is paying for these expensive flights for the mystery plane that is not carrying freight or passengers and just happens to be the one that seems to kick of the cloud seeding? I honestly are not expecting an answer on Kiwibiker or anywhere else for that matter - even if the mystery financial party could be found it, I'm sure the answer would hidden behind the good old "commercially sensitive" tag.

[Katman]

Fair enough, but they are called contrails, chemtrails is a conspiracy theory term.

You've really not looked into the subject of geo-engineering at all, have you?

[Katman]

What hasn't changed is the laws of physics, how much bad stuff has to be lifted to form a chemtrail 20km wide?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/c...ume-d_843.html

[TheDemonLord]

It was in reference to your inability to take on board the basics of asset tax and depreciation despite it being clearly and indisputably explained.

What you explained, was what you wanted it to be.

Not what is actually is.

When you continued to redefine words and meanings and ignoring the meanings that were explicitly stated in the sources you provided I gave up. That's not a Debate, that's your mental gymnastics.

[TheDemonLord]

The difference to my half brain between then and now - is that the contrails did not hang around all day and spread across the entire sky. Sure, I may have not noticed when I was a kid, but I was fascinated - obsessed even with them and I did observe them at great detail and I can honestly not remember contrails acting then as they do now.

So, your entire subscription to this theory (putting aside the technical difficulties, the problem with secrecy, the issue with indiscriminate coverage) is predicated on what you may not have remembered from when you were young?

What about this picture:



The planes have long since departed - and you can various trails - some look quite thin and 'fresh' - others are slowly spreading out, and on the left - those look positively cloud-like.

And then you have the other issue - we know that Jet Fuel, like all Fossil fuels is hydrocarbon based. Combustion of such a fuel has the byproducts of mainly Carbon Dioxide and Water. We know that water, in the upper atmosphere can be suspended - either as tiny droplets or ice crystals and hang about all day - we call these clouds.

Depending on the pressure at an Altitude and a host of other factors deteremines whether no contrails will be produced, a short contrail will be produced, or one that hangs around all day will be produced.

[oldrider]

Only apologies for accidental transgressions? - whats the connection? https://twitter.com/Ian56789/status/...rymakow.com%2F

[sugilite:Me]

Demonlord - you have an absolute black belt in putting words in peoples mouths -. I have posed no theory whatsoever in this thread merely questions.
None of the trails I see in your photo are anywhere near as wide as what I have seen - just for your info. Had you bothered to read my earlier post agreeing with what had been said in regards to modern fuels, and conditions and to the possibility of planes triggering cloud seeding, maybe you may not have shared your pithy views - or was that exactly your point? Shining a light on your towering intellect?

So, your entire subscription to this theory (putting aside the technical difficulties, the problem with secrecy, the issue with indiscriminate coverage) is predicated on what you may not have remembered from when you were young?

What about this picture:



The planes have long since departed - and you can various trails - some look quite thin and 'fresh' - others are slowly spreading out, and on the left - those look positively cloud-like.

And then you have the other issue - we know that Jet Fuel, like all Fossil fuels is hydrocarbon based. Combustion of such a fuel has the byproducts of mainly Carbon Dioxide and Water. We know that water, in the upper atmosphere can be suspended - either as tiny droplets or ice crystals and hang about all day - we call these clouds.

Depending on the pressure at an Altitude and a host of other factors deteremines whether no contrails will be produced, a short contrail will be produced, or one that hangs around all day will be produced.

[Katman]

- or was that exactly your point? Shining a light on your towering intellect?

I've yet to see any proof of it.

[carbonhed]

None of the trails I see in your photo are anywhere near as wide as what I have seen - just for your info.

When you said that you saw them on the West Coast, was that NZ or USA?

If they're just turning around and buggering off back to where they came from... military training flight? There's a fucking hilarious talk on youtube about a training flight of the blackbird... see below.

When I worked at the Met Office back in the seventies there was a section in the back of the cloud atlas on contrails and how they could seed cirrus cloud formation. Back then they were worried about "global dimming" and the change in albedo of the planet... probably global cooling....

[TheDemonLord]

None of the trails I see in your photo are anywhere near as wide as what I have seen - just for your info.

Right - So, that leaves 2 options (leaving aside for the moment that we don't know the time before and after in either what you've seen or in the 2 photos):

1: Chemtrails
2: Something else

Option 1 requires at a minimum an entire support infrastructure, a large number of people who are all sworn to absolute secrecy, an objective and one that doesn't cause adverse effects to those who partake in the chemtrailing.

Just on those merits alone - it's extremely unlikely

So, let's consider Option 2:

The service ceiling for WW2 era aircraft is about 30,000 ft - typical altitudes were lower and Piston engines don't consume fuel at the same rate as Jets. My point being that we have extremely similar behaviour, predating any hypothetical theories about Geo-Engineering.

We know that modern Jet Airliners typically operate between 30-45,000 ft. We know that of the various cloud types Cirrus clouds (which most closely resemble the Trails) typically exist above 20,000 ft (which happens to slot nicely into our 2 other data points).

All those factors combined mean, absent any other evidence, that option 2 is Infinitely more probably.

Had you bothered to read my earlier post agreeing with what had been said in regards to modern fuels, and conditions and to the possibility of planes triggering cloud seeding, maybe you may not have shared your pithy views - or was that exactly your point? Shining a light on your towering intellect?

Okay - so you ask a question - Fine. Are you satisfied with the answer? Because your statement about your memories as a Child suggest you have nagging doubts.

I'm cool with having an element of Doubt - hell the entirety of science is simply our current best predictive model on the world around us, that is ready to be supplanted when a better, more accurate model comes along.

So let me ask a question in return: Do you think that an organization would spend the millions (probably more like Billions) to fly planes around the world, to either influence the Weather or to spray some substance into the upper atmosphere. The follow up question is - what would be the point? People tend not to spend money and resources unless there is some form of Reward or pay-off.